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Wow. You're really out there. My post is implying that I wish there were an afterlife, but I am sad that I have to accept that there isn't. What Does an ultimate "good" have to do with anything? Wishing for an ultimate good shows your bias. Why are we even responding to this guys posts?! He's in the wrong forum.
Your sadness reveals you know a creator or an afterlife makes sense.
Ah It is pertinently suggested that religion is a response to fear of death (it is more than that, of course), it is a fine folly to persuade us rabbits to love the Shining Wire.
I would have to have an ex apologist to confirm it, but I surmise that it doesn't matter. He KNOWS it is true on Faith and that he loses the debate means nothing. What is the only important factor is that he "Keeps the Faith". If he does that, he wins - in his own view.
I believe it takes more faith to look at the universe and say, "We don't know how it started, but it can't be a creator!"
Let's keep in mind though that many of us were also theists at one time. We believed simply because our parents believed. It was even an important part of our identity. We did not know how little evidentiary support there actually was for religion. So, I don't think we should be too hard on those who are still trying to figure all of this out.
I don't believe because my parents believed. My father is an agnostic. I'm an educated middle-aged adult who can think for myself.
I'm not the one who brought up eternal matter. I merely suggested that eternal matter could be our creator.
It's strange, though, that you leaped so quickly to it as a possibility when you don't even know what it is.
Now THAT'S illogical.
What if the meaning of "eternal matter" was "an evil clown with purple hair"? For all you know, that's exactly what it does mean. You have not one faintest clue so it could mean an evil clown, why not? Or it could mean Satan. Or it could be a reference to something the god Zeus houses in a magic box on Mount Olympus. Or it could mean the residue of ejaculate. Or it could be Cracker Jacks. Or it could be a phrase from some Sci-Fi book. For all you know the meaning could be anything at all, from the sensible to the weird to the offensive to the comedic to...anything.
But because it could have somehow vaguely supported something you believe in, you JUMPED at it. "Yes! Maybe that's it."
Yet you say others are being illogical?
If you're at the point where you will literally believe anything that might help you cling to your beliefs...even if you don't know what the holy heck it is...then it may be time to step back and take stock here, Jimmie. JMO.
I believe it takes more faith to look at the universe and say, "We don't know how it started, but it can't be a creator!"
It might, though I'm not seeing the correlation between faith and disbelief.
But even if it did, who said that here?
I see (and have put forth) many suggestions that there's nothing to say it was a "creator," that science is working on uncovering the reason, that there are natural laws and this too might be a natural law and given everything as a whole on that basis, it would seem the "inception" of the universe had some natural rules behind it too. I see people saying it's illogical and strange to say that if we don't have the answer yet it MUST be a conscious creator.
But I don't see anyone saying, "We don't know how it started, but it can't be a creator!"
Quote:
I don't believe because my parents believed. My father is an agnostic. I'm an educated middle-aged adult who can think for myself.
It's wonderful to hear that you can think for yourself!
You are, however, an educated middle-aged adult who can think for himself, AND who has been immersed in "religious culture" since birth onward, in ways you may not even be conscious of, though many of them I'm sure you are conscious of. From the littlest hints upward ("thank God," "God bless you") and progressing from there ("Merry Christmas! Isn't there just something magical about this holiday?" "Who can look at that picture of a suffering Jesus without gratitude for THAT MUCH love? Only somebody truly evil" "How can you do X? Aren't you afraid of hell?" "I'll bet (so and so tyrannical leader) is in hell right now" "Don't worry, your suffering all means something, it's not in vain, you'll get your reward one day" "I'm sorry your grandma is sick...I'll pray for her"), you've been literally steeped in this culture since the moment you opened your eyes outside your mother's body, just as most of us who were not raised in a cave have been - whether our parents wanted us to be, or not.
You are also an educated middle-aged adult who can still think for himself, AND who has emotions, deep fears and to a degree, like all of us (varying degrees, of course), vestiges of the magical thinking we engaged in as children. The magical thinking matures as the person matures (generally) and the wording becomes more "concrete," if you will, and convincing, but there's still that portion of us that wants to believe in magic, and believe in happy endings (heaven! because WE were so good) and vindication (hell! for that horrid person who picked on us in the 7th grade). We all deal with these struggles, conflicts and fantasies in different ways, but religion fits the bill very neatly for a large portion of the population because it hits on all the necessary emotions (I won't go into details on that right now as this is already a serious derailment).
I've already answered this question. Do you have difficulties with reading comprehension?
Actually, you never adequately answered that question at all unless you're talking about that vague hand-wave to "eternal matter" which you yourself admit to having NO knowledge of or information about; it is literally just a phrase you've heard, which you don't know the meaning of. So no, you haven't answered yet.
HOW can God never have been created by anything else if everything must have a creator?
No one (yet) has been able to give a better answer for what sparked the universe/life than a creator (of some sort).
You are assuming that a creator is a good answer to begin with.
There is no evidence that any sentient being created our universe. Even the most powerful telescopes on earth or in space don't detect a Jesus working among the stars or making galaxies.
The earth is literally like an insignificantly small spaceship moving through the Milky Way galaxy. It just so happens that complex life forms evolved on this spaceship over billions of years. That is the only reason that any of us are here to talk about this today. Everywhere that we presently know of beyond the earth is hostile to human existence. We would not survive long without life support even if we left the earth's own lower atmosphere. We are completely alone and our existence is extremely fragile. A comet or asteroid could wipe out all of humanity, and the universe would go on as if nothing at all happened.
Some day, we might come in contact with intelligent beings on other tiny spaceships floating through the galaxy just like us. If we are fortunate, they will not be hostile to us or simply want to blow us all to smithereens.
I believe it takes more faith to look at the universe and say, "We don't know how it started, but it can't be a creator!"
But no one said that!!!!!
We said that we don't know how it started and neither to you, so we won't believe in a creator. That's not to say that it can't be true, just that we don't know and neither do you.
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It is pertinently suggested that religion is a response to fear of death (it is more than that, of course), it is a fine folly to persuade us rabbits to love the Shining Wire.
