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I always thought psychopaths are born while sociopaths are made. Is this an incorrect way to view the two terms?
I think more research about that has been done. Katherine Ramsland's explanation is interesting.
"....If you subscribe to the Hare PCL-R criteria for a psychopath, then you see the conning, manipulative narcissistic liar and user as a psychopath, as long as he or she is completely lacking in remorse or empathy. The sociopath, however, is capable of guilt, caring, building relationships, etc., but only within a certain context. He or she will have loyalties to a specific group but not to society at large. They care nothing for social norms and will break them with impunity if it serves their purpose. So, on the surface, they may resemble psychopaths. However, they might genuinely feel remorse over harming someone within their group or family. They will have a moral code specific to that context: they might not lie, exploit, or manipulate within the group. Thus, they exhibit psychopathic behaviors in certain contexts but not all. As far as I know, there is no equivalent diagnostic tool (to the PCL-R) for a sociopath."
-Dr. Katherine Ramsland, MA Forensic Psychology, MA Clinical Psychology, PhD in Philosophy, publisher of over 35 books, including The Human Predator: A Historical Chronology of Criminal Murder and Forensic Investigation.
I have concerns about the constant refrain of "mental illness" as the cause for various forms of violent attacks. Most people who have mental illness, even of a severe form, especially something like schizophrenia, are far more of a hazard to their own safety and wellbeing, than they are to anyone else's. Most are not violent criminals waiting to happen, and treating them like they are harms their ability to be able to live and be OK. I know this up close and personal, because I know two people who have schizophrenia, and neither of them are dangerous to others.
And when most people think, "mental illness," they are thinking about those who act overtly "crazy" and no one fits that bill better, I don't think, than your typical unmedicated schizophrenic. Yet if they can be kept on the right meds, they can live pretty normal lives. The problem is that what they need is someone to check up on them periodically and make sure that they keep taking the meds, because often they feel better and then they don't think that they need them anymore.
I think about the old psych hospitals and I recall all of the horror stories I have heard about torturous abuse and experimentation on the institutionalized. Not to mention that at periods in history, it was a handy way to get rid of a relative who was in any way a problem to one's desires. If a horrible person wanted their spouse out of the way so that they could carry on an affair, they could convince someone that they were "mentally ill" and have them locked up and drugged into a stupor. Nothing like any of that should exist in the present day! But surely with what we know now, we could have institutions that are run with more compassion and oversight?
And this is so different from the presentation of your "dark triad" personality disorders. Many people who have those are highly successful and functional in business and life. And, too, we've got every jilted lover and spouse who is hurting from love gone awry, claiming that the person who just wasn't that into them was one of these things. So there is HUGE risk in misidentification both on the positive and negative side with that.
But to whatever degree and in a different sense, "mental illness" is a factor in this problem of violence, I think that there are systemic elements that promote more mental, emotional, and spiritual unwellness in a general way. Isolation is a huge one. Lack of love and care and connection is proven to be bad for us. When you combine that with a political body that thrives on maintaining problems and keeping the public freaked out, and media (to include TV, film, video games etc) that promotes violence... In the extremes of all of the heroes who are able to solve every problem by beating and/or killing "the bad guys"...bad guys being whoever is a problem for anyone who sees themselves as the protagonist of their own story, anyone who hurts your feelings enough is a "bad guy"... and video games that are essentially warfare simulators. I can't believe that engaging in hundreds of hours of simulated slaughter does not alter the mind...
But I don't know how we change any of that, because people who feel broken and alone and on the edge are easy to exploit and manipulate, which is why the movers and shakers of society like to keep people that way.
And all of that is before you even address the matter of what tools are employed to kill, the relative efficiency of weapons invented for war, versus a car or a knife or even a firearm with a low capacity.
One thing that I can say, is that I wish that American society would do more about people with a history of domestic violence, because a lot of the offenders who have gone on to commit more egregious crimes and killing sprees have a history of it. I don't know what solutions would look like, but I think that it's a thread to tease out and work on.
Thankfully we very very rarely see anything like that here if ever although there is some violence though usually more something just flaring and usually by some idiot hot head.
But as far as the sort of thing op talks about , l think Black Sabbath pretty well summed that sort of thing up 50yrs ago in a lot of it , with Iron Man.
There’s just an overriding sense of anxiety and fear pervading this country. It’s hard to define. A feeling of helplessness and anger. People feel they have no control over their lives. A generalized despair that reaches a point where gun violence is the only way to express their hopelessness.
Growing up in the 50’s people had serious personal, emotional and mental issues but they seemed to work through them without resorting to violence. And people had guns. For personal safety at home and for hunting and other recreational purposes.
We are falling into an alienated dysfunctional society. There is no common decency or morality evident anymore.
I agree with you about this. What I'd like to understand is some of these teenagers and young adults who come from intact families, have most likely never experienced racism or poverty and have not been emotionally, academically or financially deprived. For example, Ethan Crumbley of the most recent school shooting in Michigan...
Well, I was wrong about Ethan Crumbley's family; we know more now, and it sounded as if he experienced a horrible situation. It seems that at some point, a kid who is that neglected and/or abused would cease to feel anything.
A short video clip (scroll to second one) of a teacher he shot testifies about the moment he locked eyes on her....and decided to go ahead and shoot.
I would think that the number one reason there are so many murders, senseless or otherwise, is that people were just not raised right from childhood.
It's misleading to look at crime statistics based on Wikipedia too, we have no idea how they were tabulated despite them saying they were compiled from US Census statistics and the F.B.I. WHO compiled them? HOW were they complied? Anyone can post on Wikipedia, that is hardly the place to get accurate information.
I used to work in market research doing statistical analysis, and the old saying that you can make statistics say anything you want them to say is true. We essentially did that for our clients all the time by wording the questions a certain way. One needs to know exactly how statistics are compiled in order to know whether or not anything is accurate or not.
Really, this should be looked at city by city, not state by state. According to the op's Wikipedia information, New Mexico has one of the lower murder rates. But Albuquerque is one of the most dangerous places on earth. I will never live there again or even visit. You don't need statistics to know it and Chicago, New Orleans, Jackson, Detroit etc are very dangerous places to live. Just go there and experience it first hand.
And I stick to my hypothesis that these criminals started out on the wrong foot almost from birth. It is learned behavior. I remember going w a friend to visit her family in Albuquerque's aptly named War Zone. There were some young children talking, and what they were saying was that it was a sense of pride and community for them that their fathers were in the same prison together.
If you start off that way and combine it w/ the entrenched cartels, rampant violence and drug use, a ridiculous state wide criminal system that legitimizes criminals getting out of jail w/ no bail, and a police force that is once again under a mandated Federal Judicial watch for shooting so many citizens (and some of their police have recently been arrested by U.S. Marshalls and the F.B.I. for DWI kickback schemes, along with some attorneys), it would be very, very difficult to grow up any other way than as a gangster w/ a gun in your hand.
Last edited by stephenMM; 02-07-2024 at 04:55 PM..
I would think that the number one reason there are so many murders, senseless or otherwise, is that people were just not raised right from childhood.
I agree, although these parents apparently weren't aware of anything they were doing wrong. Both parents were just sentenced for 10-15 years, while their son will serve a life sentence.
Jennifer Crumbley used her statement to clarify her trial testimony when she said she would not have done anything differently leading up to the shooting. It was "completely misunderstood," she said Tuesday, adding that her son had seemed "so normal" and that she could not have foreseen the attack.
If the availability of guns was a primary driver of the gun crime rate, one would expect the same states to appear in both lists at more or less the same order. And yet, only two states (Alaska and Mississippi) appear on both lists. Montana and Wyoming are awash in guns, yet they rank only 33rd and 34th (respectively) on the gun crime list. Idaho and both Dakotas rank even lower.
The fact is, we don't have a gun problem in this country. We have a moral problem.
I remember seeing in the news a while ago, that some guy was injured in a shooting that he was involved in, but he got caught because he was surprised that, unlike in the movies, being shot actually hurts and means that you can't just get up and run away at full capacity.
Gee whillakers! You mean TV isn't real? I wonder how many have that delusion you mention...get shot, get up, run off. I have heard from reliable sources that getting shot is a very bad idea.
But to whatever degree and in a different sense, "mental illness" is a factor in this problem of violence, I think that there are systemic elements that promote more mental, emotional, and spiritual unwellness in a general way. Isolation is a huge one. Lack of love and care and connection is proven to be bad for us. When you combine that with a political body that thrives on maintaining problems and keeping the public freaked out, and media (to include TV, film, video games etc) that promotes violence... In the extremes of all of the heroes who are able to solve every problem by beating and/or killing "the bad guys"...bad guys being whoever is a problem for anyone who sees themselves as the protagonist of their own story, anyone who hurts your feelings enough is a "bad guy"... and video games that are essentially warfare simulators. I can't believe that engaging in hundreds of hours of simulated slaughter does not alter the mind...
But I don't know how we change any of that, because people who feel broken and alone and on the edge are easy to exploit and manipulate, which is why the movers and shakers of society like to keep people that way.
Agreed 100%.
I'll add that the Covid lockdowns added to this isolation and made overall mental health worse. Some call it an unintended consequence. I'd call it deliberate.
I've also read through this thread and nobody has mentioned the role of psychiatric drugs may play in mass shootings. The media, which gets 30% of its revenue from Big Pharma, certainly never talks about it.
The other thing that gets dismissed as a crazy conspiracy theory is that some mass shootings are actually deliberate acts of terror performed by people in our government against its citizens, using assassins under mind control. They've known since at least the early 1950s how to create mind controlled assassins with multiple personalities. Just look up the CIA's MK Ultra mind control projects.
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