Which religion has more in common with Islam: Christianity or Judaism? (woman, human)

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

If Mohammad was a prophet - why did his prophecy claim that the word of Allah can never be corrupted !

Word of Allah hasn’t been changed. Read the Qur’an, the Word of Allah. It is still unchanged for over 1400 years.

[the Qur'an 50.29] My word shall not be changed, nor am I in the least unjust to the servants.
مَا يُبَدَّلُ ٱلْقَوْلُ لَدَىَّ وَمَآ أَنَا۠ بِظَلَّـٰمٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Everything in Islam is dependant and must rely completely upon the Pre - Mohammad scripts, texts and sources, because the revelations and prophecies of Mohammad ALONE do not answer nor explain many, many of the revelations of Mohammad as he revealed his revelations with the intent that they all be directly confirmed, supported and dependent upon corrupted and forbidden Pre - Mohammad FORBIDDEN scripts, texts and sources.

Even Isa not being crucified and killed on the cross? Aren’t you refuting your own point here?

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Muhammad brought no new teaching, but simply confirmed the old 46:9;41:43;43:13-15 "

Allah has … taught you what you did not know before." (4.113) Also 96:5 & 2:151

Did Muhammad confirm the old that Isa was crucified and killed on the cross? Did Allah teach him that THEY DID NOT KILL HIM OR CRUCIFY HIM?

You refute your own point.

[Span Lateral]

Thanks so much, for replying and explaining further detail about your version of the Islamic faith, I hope you understood what I was trying to say,

that basically, we can all see reality of why Muslims do have these thousands of additional Hadith books explaining away the sayings of the Prophet, the thousands of explanations and answers that are not part of the Quran.

After the Quran was given Muslims have not confided and trusted in the Quran alone as the final revelation and message,

Would you not agree that all of the entirety of the sayings of the Prophet are needed to represent what is defined as Islamic faith system existing today - ? and that the Quran represents a very, very limited portion of what Muslims today regard as ISLAM ?

in other words, because the Qurans revealed prophecies of Mohammad do not complete most of what is " ISLAM FAITH " - Muslims are not satisfied with the Quran and are literally forced to create these thousands of additional Hadith books to further build and form their religious system into something that can be “ Islam completed “

Because the Quran itself does not lead one to an understanding of a complete and final message about what Muslims believe and practice today.

Does not this destroy or remove and eliminate the premise that revealed prophecy represented in the Quran is the final and complete message of God ?

Muslims have been discontented and left incomplete by the Quran, to the extent that they are compelled to create these thousands of additional revelations and prophecy just to build and create the greater portion of what Islam had developed into, after the Quran was already given ! how do we truly know what Hadith is authentic with the contradictions between them and also the weak and rejected Hadith. that are all man-made and not inspired by Allah.


To even attempt to compare the Quran in contrast to the Hebrew and Greek Pre - Mohammad scripts, texts and sources that are truly the completed word of God, that also strongly command that additional faith and additional writings are not to be added.

we realize the fact that Islam is more comparable to Catholicism or Protestantism or the Trinitarian faith that originated 200 - 300 years after the fact.

It is completely impossible for the Quran to be compared to scripts and texts that Muslims claim do not exist - because Muslims refused to preserve any of these, claiming that they were corrupted - yet also their " Man Made non inspired " Hadith also has corruption, to the point that Muslims disagree about which Hadith are authentic.

In conclusion, if we just rely upon the Quran - Islam as we know it today would not exist solely based upon the Quran alone - Muslims are forced to rely upon what they define as corruption and Non Inspired Hadith - to understand the FINAL MESSAGE of the Quran and to create an ISLAM that does not exist in the Quran.

This reference and full scope of what is Islam is completely non – existent in the Quran alone. Muslims turn to corrupted scripts, texts and sources and turn to non Quranic Hadith written by man to create an Islamic faith that does not exist in the final revelation.

Is this not a comparison that is evident of the comparing of one man-made religious system compared to another man-made religious system, that is completed by cherry-picking through corrupted manuscripts of the past and then combining this with producing man-made Hadith after the final message was sent.


What percentage of the totality of Quran is actually comprising as totality of the Islamic faith system.

"the Quran needs the Hadith more than the Hadith needs the Quran".

The Sunni and Shia establishment agree that Islam can not be practiced without hadith.

Hadith is needed in order to contextualize the Qur'ān because it lacks

What can we compare to Islam = the evidence points to existing as a Man-made religion having absolutely no manuscripts for its faith system that is dependant upon corruption and man-made sources.

[jetgraphics]

Christianity boils down to "love God; love thy neighbor."
Islam boils down to "Our way or die."
Vast difference between the two.

[jetgraphics]

= = = = = = =
IT OFFENDS

• It offends Muslims to be denounced as murdering mad dogs, especially when they seek martyrdom to offset their own sins.
• It offends Muslims to be denounced as enemies of freedom and liberty, especially when they are seeking to impose Shari’ah, a madman’s nightmare.
• It offends Muslims to be denounced as destroyers of civilization, art, music, antiquities, especially when they are.
• It offends Muslims to be denounced as liars and deceivers, especially when their own scriptures encourage it, as a weapon against kafirs (infidels).
• It offends Muslims to be denounced as mindless followers of an evil warlord, fabulist, pedophile, rapist, kidnapper and madman, especially when they consider him the “perfect man” and model.

. . . . .
Sina’s Challenge re: Mohammed
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

Muslim’s defense of Mohammed : Moral relativism and situational ethics, e.g., “In those days, pedophilia, assassination, rape, raid, pillage, massacre and lying, were common practices, so Muhammad is innocent because he did what everyone else was doing.” Muslims even go as far as to question the legitimacy of the Golden Rule to claim I do not have any basis to condemn Muhammad. In other words, who can say what is good and what is evil? That is up to the messenger of God to decide.

In short, MUSLIMS cannot discern what is good nor evil, only what their prophet says or does matters.

"Muhammad is a narcissist, a pedophile, a plagiarist, a mass murderer, a terrorist, a misogynist, a lecher, a cult leader, a madman, a rapist, a torturer, an assassin and a looter."
THIS IS THEIR "PERFECT MAN".

Islam is at war with all peoples, religions, and governments.
= = =

"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me." (saith Mohammed)

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=83756
= = =
Eternal jihad until all are converted, dhimmi, or dead.
Convert, Submit, or DIE.
No other option.
=> It's in their Quran, Hadiths, Sira, and the Sunna of Mohammed <=
Without the Sira (the sacred biography of Muhammad) the Quran has no context or chronology. Without knowing the chronology one cannot tell which conflicting scripture in the Quran supersedes which. The latter always supersedes a conflict. (Abrogation)

CONTRARY KORAN :
>> You have your religion <<
<< Kill the infidels >>
Which one should we believe is the true Islam?
Both? Neither?

Mecca (early) 109:1 “You have your religion, and I have mine.”
Medina (late) 8:12 “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the Kafirs (unbelievers). Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.”

BELIEVERS IN ISLAM and ALLAH = DECEIVERS

[Span Lateral]

I think I understand your point.


Are you saying that the true uncorrupted scriptures already previously sent down did not reveal and present and mention the facts concerning whether or not Issa was crucified -

Allah never mentioned anything about the crucifixion in the previous scriptures

So... Mohammad had to then receive the revelation about the crucifixion because the previous scriptures did not mention anything about the crucifixion

Allah has … taught you what you did not know before." (4.113) Also 96:5 & 2:151

Perhaps this Is a particular message only for Mohammad's family and companions

Perhaps the Hadith and Pre Islamic scripts and texts can explain - because the Quran does not explain what Mohammad is referring to.

Should not the true uncorrupted scriptures already previously sent down - already have presented the truth about the crucifixion - ? ?

Does not the Quran seem to drift back and forth between a realm of a world with no previous scriptures and then drift back over to a realm that commands that trust and confidence and authority be placed in previous scriptures ?

Did Muhammad confirm the old that Isa was crucified and killed on the cross? Did Allah teach him that THEY DID NOT KILL HIM OR CRUCIFY HIM?

Perhaps in Islamic theology, the previous Greek scriptures never mentioned the crucifixion or Mohammed is strictly giving this message to his family and companions.

This is the reliability that upon Islam hangs - who knew what and what existed ?
- Islam provides no reference or answers - it is all a guessing game that man decides afterwards.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Thanks so much, for replying and explaining further detail about your version of the Islamic faith, I hope you understood what I was trying to say,

Of course I understood YOUR version of the Islamic faith !

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

that basically, we can all see reality of why Muslims do have these thousands of additional Hadith books explaining away the sayings of the Prophet, the thousands of explanations and answers that are not part of the Quran.

Have you ever seen me explaining the Qur’an with the hadith books? Blaming all Muslims for using hadith books is silly.

[16.89] … and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.
… ۚ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ تِبْيَـٰنًا لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً

No more explanation needed. All the explanations are in the Qur’an for those who have open minds.

[17.89] And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur’an every kind of similitude, but most people do not consent to aught but denying.
وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِى هَـٰذَا ٱلْقُرْءَانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰٓ أَكْثَرُ ٱلنَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

[18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Qur’an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.
وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِى هَـٰذَا ٱلْقُرْءَانِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ ۚ وَكَانَ ٱلْإِنسَـٰنُ أَكْثَرَ شَىْءٍ جَدَلًا

All you have to do is study the Qur’an and understand the explanations in there. Don’t just close your mind to the Qur’an thinking that there are no explanations in there.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

After the Quran was given Muslims have not confided and trusted in the Quran alone as the final revelation and message,

You are somewhat correct there. They should have believed in the verses of the Qur’an.

[45.6] These are the ayat (verses) of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His verses?
تِلْكَ ءَايَـٰتُ ٱللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِٱلْحَقِّ ۖ فَبِأَىِّ حَدِيثٍۭ بَعْدَ ٱللَّهِ وَءَايَـٰتِهِۦ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Would you not agree that all of the entirety of the sayings of the Prophet are needed to represent what is defined as Islamic faith system existing today - ? and that the Quran represents a very, very limited portion of what Muslims today regard as ISLAM ?

Islam was perfected by the Qur’an over 200 years before any hadith books came on the scene. That’s why you don’t see me quoting hadith books to explain Islam. I use the Qur’an, the Word of Allah, to back up my understanding of te Islamic faith.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

in other words, because the Qurans revealed prophecies of Mohammad do not complete most of what is " ISLAM FAITH " - Muslims are not satisfied with the Quran and are literally forced to create these thousands of additional Hadith books to further build and form their religious system into something that can be “ Islam completed “

No. You got it wrong about these Muslims. They do that not because the Qur’an doesn’t explain to them but they don’t understand what the Qur’an explains to them. The Qur’an is complete.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Because the Quran itself does not lead one to an understanding of a complete and final message about what Muslims believe and practice today.

The Qur’an does lead one to an understanding of complete message of the Islamic faith. People are not studying the Qur’an. Big mistake. On the Day of Judgment, the messenger who delivered the Qur’an won’t be crying that his followers had forsaken the hadith books but forsaken the Qur’an.

[25.30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! Surely my people have treated this Qur’an as a forsaken thing.
وَقَالَ ٱلرَّسُولُ يَـٰرَبِّ إِنَّ قَوْمِى ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ هَـٰذَا ٱلْقُرْءَانَ مَهْجُورًا

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Does not this destroy or remove and eliminate the premise that revealed prophecy represented in the Quran is the final and complete message of God ?

That is why I don’t use hadith books to explain my understanding of the complete message of God but only what is from God.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Muslims have been discontented and left incomplete by the Quran, to the extent that they are compelled to create these thousands of additional revelations and prophecy just to build and create the greater portion of what Islam had developed into, after the Quran was already given !

Islam had developed completely by the message of the Qur’an. Many Muslims (not all) don’t understand this.
Islam was perfected with the last law revealed in the verse 5:3 of the Qur’an. I quote here the latter part of the verse here:

[5.3] … This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining wilfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
… ٱلْيَوْمَ يَئِسَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِن دِينِكُمْ فَلَا تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَٱخْشَوْنِ ۚ ٱلْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ ٱلْإِسْلَـٰمَ دِينًا ۚ فَمَنِ ٱضْطُرَّ فِى مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍ لِّإِثْمٍ ۙ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

A perfected Islam doesn’t need to be perfected further with the hadith books from men 200 years later.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

how do we truly know what Hadith is authentic with the contradictions between them and also the weak and rejected Hadith. that are all man-made and not inspired by Allah.

You can’t. In fact, the messenger had forbidden his companions to write anything that is from himself only. They were to write down only what was from God but delivered by the messenger (the Qur’an).

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

To even attempt to compare the Quran in contrast to the Hebrew and Greek Pre - Mohammad scripts, texts and sources that are truly the completed word of God, that also strongly command that additional faith and additional writings are not to be added.

Here one must understand that nothing was to be added in the Words of God. Meaning, actual words of God. This is why the words in the Qur’an have not changed for the past 14 centuries.
We also know that the previous revelations were for the Bani Israel, who were trusted to guard explain them to the rest of the people. The Qur’an is for the whole mankind.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

we realize the fact that Islam is more comparable to Catholicism or Protestantism or the Trinitarian faith that originated 200 - 300 years after the fact.

Untrue !
You are mistaken here. It shows your lack of understanding of Islam.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

It is completely impossible for the Quran to be compared to scripts and texts that Muslims claim do not exist - because Muslims refused to preserve any of these, claiming that they were corrupted - yet also their " Man Made non inspired " Hadith also has corruption, to the point that Muslims disagree about which Hadith are authentic.

Pre-Qur’an scripts and texts are not for comparing with the Qur’an or the vice versa. The Taurat (given through Moses) was complete for the Children of Israel and the Qur’an is complete for the whole mankind.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

In conclusion, if we just rely upon the Quran - Islam as we know it today would not exist solely based upon the Quran alone -

I disagree.
That would be true only if all Muslims today say that the Qur’an is NOT complete guidance for them.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Muslims are forced to rely upon what they define as corruption and Non Inspired Hadith - to understand the FINAL MESSAGE of the Quran and to create an ISLAM that does not exist in the Quran.

They can’t be right. Allah has explained the message of the Qur’an.

[16.89] … and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.
وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ تِبْيَـٰنًا لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

This reference and full scope of what is Islam is completely non – existent in the Quran alone. Muslims turn to corrupted scripts, texts and sources and turn to non Quranic Hadith written by man to create an Islamic faith that does not exist in the final revelation.

You will have to deny the Qur’an 16:89 and, therefore, the Qur’an to justify your false understanding of the Islamic faith.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Is this not a comparison that is evident of the comparing of one man-made religious system compared to another man-made religious system, that is completed by cherry-picking through corrupted manuscripts of the past and then combining this with producing man-made Hadith after the final message was sent.

The Qur’an verifies what was revealed before the Qur’an. That is not comparing the revelations. There is a lot of truth in the previous texts/scripts but none exist since the Babylonian destruction and captivity.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

What percentage of the totality of Quran is actually comprising as totality of the Islamic faith system.

100%. Read the Qur’an 5:3. Islam was perfected long before any hadith books came on the scene.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

"the Quran needs the Hadith more than the Hadith needs the Quran".

How did then the Qur’an survive for 200 years before the hadith books came on the scene? Muslims in those 200 years had only the Qur’an and the established sunnah of the prophet based on the Qur’an.

You need to study the Islamic faith and particularly the Qur’an to understand the points I am making here. Staying in the dark won’t help you in these discussions.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

The Sunni and Shia establishment agree that Islam can not be practiced without hadith.

Both are wrong.
To practice Islam, you need the Qur’an and the sunnah of the prophet that is based on the Qur’an from the outset.
Hadith books came 200 years later. How did the prophet practice Islam without the hadith books for 22 years, and the companions for many more years without the hadith books?

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Hadith is needed in order to contextualize the Qur'ān because it lacks

No. The Qur’an is not incomplete. Only an ignorant person will say that the Qur’an is not complete.
The hadith books, even if they contextualize, add nothing more than what is already in the Qur’an. Perhaps dummies need the context to understand the Qur’an. That still doesn’t mean that there is no context in the Qur’an or the Qur’an is not complete.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

What can we compare to Islam = the evidence points to existing as a Man-made religion having absolutely no manuscripts for its faith system that is dependant upon corruption and man-made sources.

You can’t compare anything to Islam. Islam has been perfected (5:3). It can’t be perfected further. ALHAMDULILLAH !

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

I think I understand your point.

You don't.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Are you saying that the true uncorrupted scriptures already previously sent down did not reveal and present and mention the facts concerning whether or not Issa was crucified –

I knew you did not understand my point.
There are no scriptures already sent down by God that mention Issa was crucified or not. What you read about the crucifixion event is not from God but from certain men who were not even present at the time.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Allah never mentioned anything about the crucifixion in the previous scriptures

Did He or didn’t He?

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

So... Mohammad had to then receive the revelation about the crucifixion because the previous scriptures did not mention anything about the crucifixion

Allah tells us that they neither killed nor crucified Issa. There is no revelation before the Qur’an after the alleged crucifixion event that says Issa was crucified and killed on the cross. No revelation from God and no proof of Issa’s death on the cross. Nothing but conjecture until all was revealed through the Qur’an as verification from God.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Allah has … taught you what you did not know before." (4.113) Also 96:5 & 2:151

Perhaps this Is a particular message only for Mohammad's family and companions

Taught through the Qur’an. Why is it so difficult for you to understand such simple text?

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Perhaps the Hadith and Pre Islamic scripts and texts can explain - because the Quran does not explain what Mohammad is referring to.

Qur’an does explain but you are not willing to understand.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Should not the true uncorrupted scriptures already previously sent down - already have presented the truth about the crucifixion - ? ?

Which scriptures were sent down from God after the crucifixion event? Through which messenger?

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Does not the Quran seem to drift back and forth between a realm of a world with no previous scriptures and then drift back over to a realm that commands that trust and confidence and authority be placed in previous scriptures ?

You are still trying to understand the Qur’an but unable to decide whether to approach it from back or from forth.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Did Muhammad confirm the old that Isa was crucified and killed on the cross? Did Allah teach him that THEY DID NOT KILL HIM OR CRUCIFY HIM?

Allah told Muhammad that THEY KILLED HIM NOT NOR CRUCIFIED HIM. Is that hard for you to understand?

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

Perhaps in Islamic theology, the previous Greek scriptures never mentioned the crucifixion or Mohammed is strictly giving this message to his family and companions.

There hasn’t been any other revelation from God about the crucifixion event till the revelation of the Qur’an. It’s because there hasn’t been any messenger since Issa till Muhammad.

Originally Posted by Span Lateral

This is the reliability that upon Islam hangs - who knew what and what existed ?
- Islam provides no reference or answers - it is all a guessing game that man decides afterwards.

LOL !
Islam is clear: No crucifixion. End of the argument.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Christianity boils down to "love God; love thy neighbor."
Islam boils down to "Our way or die."
Vast difference between the two.

Without God being crucified on the cross and dying a cruel death on the cross, and being resurrected 2.5 days later, there is no Christianity.

Crusaders were definitely showing what Christianity boiled down to.

[yasureoktoo]

Originally Posted by Khalif

What?

The very first book of theirs is mostly about Abraham after the story of human creation. Without that, you will have no validation of circumcision.

Written thousands of years after the supposed fact.
It's not real.