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I've heard the saying many times that "people don't leave jobs, they leave bad managers." I don't happen to believe this is always true. I currently have a good manager and a good team, but I'm also actively pursuing another job.
I mentioned on another forum a recent conversation I had with my current manager, in which he came to learn one of the major factors why I'm unhappy at work. His response was a very professional attempt to figure out how to make things better, and also curiosity as to why I never approached him about it. (Because it's extremely risky, that's why. Also I have a long history of managers who either ignored problems, or somehow made things worse with their "solutions.")
Anyhow, one person on this other forum suggested that it's so rare to find a good, caring manager, and in her opinion that makes the job worth holding on to. She stood by this even when I mentioned that I'm also very tired of my long commute and know for a fact that other companies pay far better for similar positions. There's just far too much working against me that even the best manager will not be able to fix.
I should also add that my original manager at this company was also very good to me, and exactly the type of person I was happy to work for -- until she upped and quit without notice, leaving many people high and dry. Who's to say this current guy won't eventually do the same?
What are your thoughts on this?
Of course it's not ALWAYS true. But the point of the mantra is that it does happen. No matter how good the job/role may be - a bad manager can still ruin things.
At the end of the day - you have to do what you have to do. Certainly those that are starting out in the careers will likely find new opportunities that he current one may not offer (regardless of how good their current managers are). And honestly, the good managers realize that and have no problem seeing them move on.
The key is that you do your research and make sure you are leaving for a valid reason. All these sayings are true - but they also may not apply 100% of the time.
WHY is "management" such a hot button with you, I'd try to figure out. Get your results the way you're getting paid to get them or find a job you like better.
But it sounds like your job hunting is not working out.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me here. I am actively looking for a new job, as I've stated, because my current position doesn't meet any of my needs, however I'm finding very little worth applying to at the moment. I was having far better luck landing interviews 4-8 months ago.
As far as my issues with management, I've had a number of bad managers over the years, and when I've had good managers they didn't stick around long. So, I have trust issues based on past experience. My default assumption when problems come along is that my manager will offer "solutions" that only make things worse. But then I make things harder on myself by simply dealing with it without any guidance.
The other thing is, even when you have a good manager who supports you, sometimes they don't have the final say on what happens.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me here. I am actively looking for a new job, as I've stated, because my current position doesn't meet any of my needs, however I'm finding very little worth applying to at the moment. I was having far better luck landing interviews 4-8 months ago.
As far as my issues with management, I've had a number of bad managers over the years, and when I've had good managers they didn't stick around long. So, I have trust issues based on past experience. My default assumption when problems come along is that my manager will offer "solutions" that only make things worse. But then I make things harder on myself by simply dealing with it without any guidance.
The other thing is, even when you have a good manager who supports you, sometimes they don't have the final say on what happens.
Many times a person has to find solutions on his/her own. There are times when managers aren’t open to solutions (they don’t have the time or don’t want people to think outside the box).
There are no guarantees that a manager - or your favorite co-worker - is going to be there tomorrow (let alone forever) because just like YOU they might be looking for a different job.
Luckily, you already have a job while you are looking so you can a bit more choosy. I would think most people have to balance out the positives of their job with the negatives to justify staying there.
I'm a manager. We are not kings, just managers. We don't have control over everything. A good and bad manager is in the eye of the beholder. I've had great managers that others said were bad and I've had terrible managers that others liked.
I wasn't clear by one part in your OP. Is the manager that you like on the way out? If so, how does that change your circumstances?
I've been working for over 15 years and while management was the reason I left only a handful of times, I've also never had a truly inspiring manager until more recently. That makes a significant difference in how I feel about work, even if it's messy and uncertain at the moment. It's really difficult to find that in the abyss of bad managers.
I think, if it were me, I'd be very critical in your investigation process through these interviews. Ask some challenging, if not slightly pointed, questions to the hiring manager and see how they respond. When I was looking last year, despite being desperate to get out, I passed on one opportunity because the management culture was so transparently awful during the interviews.
One of the questions you'll have to ask yourself is whether the increase in pay and shorter commute is worth the risk of a bad manager or management culture and how much risk you can handle. A bad management culture is worse than a bad manager because even a good manager can't make much impact within a bad culture.
I've been in one of those. The job itself was perfect for me, but the management culture was toxic. So toxic that even when we got a good manager, they didn't last long in that culture and left. The only real fix would have been a complete replacement, top to bottom, with A level managers, as well as replacing their key staff at the same time. Which just doesn't happen.
What's your tolerance for risk?
Correct on all parts. I've worked good jobs with bad managers, and bad jobs with good managers.
It all comes down to your risk tolerance, I have a very high risk tolerance (no wife, no kids) so I have the freedom to be far more flexible as my mistakes, if a risk doesn't pan out, don't affect anyone else.
"Don't pay much attention to folk wisdom about life in the workplace".
The one exception would be cooking your leftover fish in the breakroom microwave. That one's real.
I'd argue that most people leave jobs due to other people...be that the manager or their co-workers or their clients. People are the foundation of everything that occurs within a company. Whether that's the culture or management style or demands of the job. Most jobs I've left have been because of someone, not necessarily some thing. Sometimes jobs are not what you thought they'd be. But, for the most part, I've left jobs because of the management or the culture promoted by those people within; not because I hated my tasks.
I'd argue that most people leave jobs due to other people...be that the manager or their co-workers or their clients. People are the foundation of everything that occurs within a company. Whether that's the culture or management style or demands of the job. Most jobs I've left have been because of someone, not necessarily some thing. Sometimes jobs are not what you thought they'd be. But, for the most part, I've left jobs because of the management or the culture promoted by those people within; not because I hated my tasks.
I hear you.
The only real reason I've ever quit is to cash out my 401K once (paid off student loan) and the other times was for more money. Generally, I just accept the fact that personal issues are just part of life and so I'd quit for more money realizing that the next job might be as bad or worse on the personnel side. Somehow I've always been able to work around the speedbumps in the road - but once or twice it was a real effort.
Oh yeah... and the other wisdom is "Don't steal food out of the breakroom refrigerator". That one, if ignored, could net some really bad consequences for the violator.
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