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I lived in SLC and Midvale Utah from 1983 to 1995. Utah is the prettiest place I have ever lived and there was a lot to do there. I am not LDS. I heard a lot of stories about how I would have problems but I never did. I found the people in Utah to be quite nice and made a lot of Mormon and non-Mormon friends. I believe it is less than 50% Mormon in Salt Lake with much higher percentages in other, smaller, areas/towns. We were visited occasionally by missionaries but no more than we were in other areas of the country.
The only place we saw any discrimination was in the job market. My husband was asked what ward(church) he was in during a job interview. I was once up for a promotion and when I asked why I didn't get the job, I was told I was "sitting in the wrong pew". Yes, this is wrong but I can see this happening in any area with one dominant religion.
We don't have any real religious ties and for a while we thought it would just be easier to be Mormon. We did some investigating and learned we couldn't afford it time wise or dollar wise. It is a large investment.
isn't it safe to say that the mentality still persists among many mormons? Particularly the more conservative ones? I have heard rumors, and they are just rumors, that there are small towns in Idaho that African Americans don't even dare drive through.
No, it's not safe to say that. I've heard rumors, and they are just rumors, that there is a lake in Scotland where this big sea monster lives. They call her Nessie.
I lived in SLC and Midvale Utah from 1983 to 1995. Utah is the prettiest place I have ever lived and there was a lot to do there. I am not LDS. I heard a lot of stories about how I would have problems but I never did. I found the people in Utah to be quite nice and made a lot of Mormon and non-Mormon friends. I believe it is less than 50% Mormon in Salt Lake with much higher percentages in other, smaller, areas/towns. We were visited occasionally by missionaries but no more than we were in other areas of the country.
The only place we saw any discrimination was in the job market. My husband was asked what ward(church) he was in during a job interview. I was once up for a promotion and when I asked why I didn't get the job, I was told I was "sitting in the wrong pew". Yes, this is wrong but I can see this happening in any area with one dominant religion.
We don't have any real religious ties and for a while we thought it would just be easier to be Mormon. We did some investigating and learned we couldn't afford it time wise or dollar wise. It is a large investment.
MY sister, who lives in St. George, was also discriminated against in her place of work. Denied a promotion, work scheduled altered. She too was asked about her faith upon hiring. I have been to St. George several times. I PERSONALLY would not live there. It's a weird place. Utah is a most beautiful state for sure.
From hearing various stories not only on this forum but others as well, it almost sounds as if Utah is somehow immune from Title VII of the Civil Rights Act? Is there no U.S. EEOC presence in Utah at all?
“Under Title VII:
Employers may not treat employees or applicants more or less favorably because of their religious beliefs or practices - except to the extent a religious accommodation is warranted. For example, an employer may not refuse to hire individuals of a certain religion, may not impose stricter promotion requirements for persons of a certain religion, and may not impose more or different work requirements on an employee because of that employee's religious beliefs or practices.
Employees cannot be forced to participate -- or not participate -- in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer. A reasonable religious accommodation is any adjustment to the work environment that will allow the employee to practice his religion. An employer might accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices by allowing: flexible scheduling, voluntary substitutions or swaps, job reassignments and lateral transfers, modification of grooming requirements and other workplace practices, policies and/or procedures.
An employer is not required to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs and practices if doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employers' legitimate business interests. An employer can show undue hardship if accommodating an employee's religious practices requires more than ordinary administrative costs, diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees' job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee's share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation.
Employers must permit employees to engage in religious expression, unless the religious expression would impose an undue hardship on the employer. Generally, an employer may not place more restrictions on religious expression than on other forms of expression that have a comparable effect on workplace efficiency.
Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees. An employer can reduce the chance that employees will engage unlawful religious harassment by implementing an anti-harassment policy and having an effective procedure for reporting, investigating and correcting harassing conduct.
It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on religion or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.”
I’m gathering that in Utah, any business that is owned by the Mormon Church or even a business that is owned by a member of the Church, definitely does have the right to discriminate strictly on religious affiliation? If you are not LDS, your rights are stripped in the workplace that happens to be Mormon owned? A Mormon owned business has the right to ask your religious affiliation upon application for employment? And also has the right to openly discriminate against said applicant for that reason? Once hired, that employer has the right to discriminate against any employee based on their religious affiliation for purposes of promotion, etc?
Please! Somebody tell me all that isn’t true. I keep hearing it is but in reality, is it?
From hearing various stories not only on this forum but others as well, it almost sounds as if Utah is somehow immune from Title VII of the Civil Rights Act? Is there no U.S. EEOC presence in Utah at all?
“Under Title VII:
Employers may not treat employees or applicants more or less favorably because of their religious beliefs or practices - except to the extent a religious accommodation is warranted. For example, an employer may not refuse to hire individuals of a certain religion, may not impose stricter promotion requirements for persons of a certain religion, and may not impose more or different work requirements on an employee because of that employee's religious beliefs or practices.
Employees cannot be forced to participate -- or not participate -- in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer. A reasonable religious accommodation is any adjustment to the work environment that will allow the employee to practice his religion. An employer might accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices by allowing: flexible scheduling, voluntary substitutions or swaps, job reassignments and lateral transfers, modification of grooming requirements and other workplace practices, policies and/or procedures.
An employer is not required to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs and practices if doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employers' legitimate business interests. An employer can show undue hardship if accommodating an employee's religious practices requires more than ordinary administrative costs, diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees' job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee's share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation.
Employers must permit employees to engage in religious expression, unless the religious expression would impose an undue hardship on the employer. Generally, an employer may not place more restrictions on religious expression than on other forms of expression that have a comparable effect on workplace efficiency.
Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees. An employer can reduce the chance that employees will engage unlawful religious harassment by implementing an anti-harassment policy and having an effective procedure for reporting, investigating and correcting harassing conduct.
It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on religion or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.”
I’m gathering that in Utah, any business that is owned by the Mormon Church or even a business that is owned by a member of the Church, definitely does have the right to discriminate strictly on religious affiliation? If you are not LDS, your rights are stripped in the workplace that happens to be Mormon owned? A Mormon owned business has the right to ask your religious affiliation upon application for employment? And also has the right to openly discriminate against said applicant for that reason? Once hired, that employer has the right to discriminate against any employee based on their religious affiliation for purposes of promotion, etc?
Please! Somebody tell me all that isn’t true. I keep hearing it is but in reality, is it?
--'rocco
I think you just answered your own question, rocco. We both know that the 1968 Civil Rights Act has full force and effect in Utah. We both know that the federal government has used troops in the past to enforce civil rights laws in states that didn't believe the law was applicable to them. I am sure we both know that no personnel manager in his or her right mind would ask a person about his or her religion. We both know that it's up to the employee to mention religion, if they want "reasonable accommodation." I am also equally certain that anyone reading these "stories" regarding how Zelda Schmirkle—my mother's aunt's cousin on my uncle's father-in-law's side of the family—was the victim of Mormon religious discrimination in the workplace, realizes these are nothing more than what they appear to be, "stories."
There are a number of axioms in police work. One important axiom is as follows:
There is no shortage of information. Truth, however, is scarce.
Thanks for the settling words, Sarge. Exactly, I "should know" that ...as I also should know that all the stories I hear are just that "stories." However, when I keeping hearing them again and again, I begin to wonder if those types of things are actually happening. Never having worked in Utah, I have no idea what it's like. So, yes, I'm glad to hear they could be just "stories."
Thanks for the settling words, Sarge. Exactly, I "should know" that ...as I also should know that all the stories I hear are just that "stories." However, when I keeping hearing them again and again, I begin to wonder if those types of things are actually happening. Never having worked in Utah, I have no idea what it's like. So, yes, I'm glad to hear they could be just "stories."
--'rocco
The problem exists. It is a real thing. It exists in UT, ID, WY, NM and probably other states as well. Laws are "on the books". They are not enacted or enforced and maybe it's just because they are less populated areas which means, less people competing for "personnel" jobs and running companies which seems to translate back into a "good ol' boy" mentality. In these smaller areas, there are no secrets to be kept. If you don't go to church, they'll know it. If you go to the "wrong" church, they'll know it. If they can't fire you for being blue, they'll fire you for looking green.
Don't kld yourselves into thinking it doesn't happen. Yes, they get reported. Yes, people at the next level turn the other way. CYA isn't something that only the good-guys know about.
And yes, it happens at the police departments, the schools, the factories and the stores. At the corporate level as well as at the "shovel" level.
Spent 30 years in the area. Ain't pulling no wool here.
I think you just answered your own question, rocco. We both know that the 1968 Civil Rights Act has full force and effect in Utah. We both know that the federal government has used troops in the past to enforce civil rights laws in states that didn't believe the law was applicable to them. I am sure we both know that no personnel manager in his or her right mind would ask a person about his or her religion. We both know that it's up to the employee to mention religion, if they want "reasonable accommodation." I am also equally certain that anyone reading these "stories" regarding how Zelda Schmirkle—my mother's aunt's cousin on my uncle's father-in-law's side of the family—was the victim of Mormon religious discrimination in the workplace, realizes these are nothing more than what they appear to be, "stories."
There are a number of axioms in police work. One important axiom is as follows:
There is no shortage of information. Truth, however, is scarce.
Of course the Civil Rights act applies to Utah. Do all employers follow it correctly in Utah -- No. Do all employers in other states follow it correctly -- no. Is there more of a problem in Utah than other states -- maybe. Is it significant -- not in my opinion.
Having just gone the through the job search process as I conclude my MBA, I can note the following.
At one interview, I was asked what I consider to be an inappropriate question. It was for a very small business, and the person asked me if it would bother me if "LDS Standards" were upheld at the workforce. I took that to mean no swearing, no tank tops etc. She never asked if I was LDS though. That was one extreme.
Next, at a job interview (for the position that I ended up accepting), the manager took me to lunch. He was LDS, and during lunch he asked me about my family and Church mission service. This was outside the formal interview and he was making small talk. Technically, probably against the law, but it was in a social setting, and I don't think he was asking to probe and determine if I was suitable based on those factors.
Then on the opposite extreme, I worked part-time this year for the largest bank based in Utah at their downtown headquarters (if you live here you probably know which one). My boss, and my boss'es boss were not LDS, and neither were the majority of my co-workers. There were a couple of times they said things that could be considered 'insensitive' toward the LDS, but I don't think it was out of malice. But it shows the situation could go both ways in Utah. But I will say they always treated me great on a personal level and offered me a full-time job, so religion wasn't a factor there.
I probably had 10 other job interviews, and religion never remotely came up in those interviews.
So if you are keeping track the breakdown goes like this:
2 interviews had what could have been perceived as inappropriate comments about whether I was LDS. One was more blatant than the other.
1 situation went the other way, where there were a few things said against the LDS church.
... Next, at a job interview (for the position that I ended up accepting), the manager took me to lunch. He was LDS, and during lunch he asked me about my family and Church mission service. This was outside the formal interview and he was making small talk. Technically, probably against the law, but it was in a social setting, and I don't think he was asking to probe and determine if I was suitable based on those factors.
...
Had you already accepted the job before going to lunch? If you hadn't, and let's assume that you weren't LDS, do you think that you'd still be accepted for the open position? Probably not, right? If such a question is going to asked, it's obvious that they are looking for somebody who is LDS.
If you HAD accepted the position before going to lunch, then again, I feel a bit better.
"...and I don't think he was asking to probe and determine if I was suitable based on those factors."
This is the implication that is unsettling to me. Religion shouldn't determine whether somebody is right for a position. Yes, if he realizes that you're LDS, the chances are that you're a moral hard working person who doesn't smoke, drink or swear. BUT, I'm also a moral hard-working person who doesn't smoke, drink, or swear and I'm not LDS ...assuming that we're both competing for the same position.
So, your prospective employer is thinking, "well, coolcats is in all likelihood more like me." However, I might come close to being like him too but I have the disadvantage of not being LDS.
I'm trying to think if there are any other states where religion has this type of dynamic in the workplace.
--'rocco
edit: I just looked back on RockyMtnr's post and realize that, yes, similar discrimination takes place in other locales but it's not necessarily based on religion, though.
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