Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Like its close cousin, the Toyota bZ4X, the Subaru Solterra has been experiencing sluggish sales. In the USA, Subaru has been selling 400-500 units per month of the Solterra. Even the slow-selling Subaru Ascent is selling about 5,000 units per month, 10x the Solterra's sales rate.
I think the writing is on the wall as far as the success of this first EV from Subaru and Toyota - it's a flop! Some might try to blame it on the fact that it's an EV, but last month, the Tesla Model Y - a competitor for the Solterra/bZ4x, was the world's best selling car.
Subaru and Toyota need to get their act together, and they need to do better next time.
But what's the explanation for the Mach-e? It seems to be a flop too, even though it doesn't have the shortcomings of the BZ4X/Solterra. The Model Y may be the best selling car in the world, but it ranks like #9 here at home.
But what's the explanation for the Mach-e? It seems to be a flop too, even though it doesn't have the shortcomings of the BZ4X/Solterra. The Model Y may be the best selling car in the world, but it ranks like #9 here at home.
MachE sold as well was Ford could make them up until Q2 2023. Consumers are fickle things. The whole car segment suddenly got cool as consumers went from eager to pay big markups to the dealers to, well, just not really buying. That's especially true on the EV segment. Tesla did discounts, then cut prices by 15-20k, then did free supercharging and another 8k is discounts. Hyundai/Kia are doing 5k cash discounts whereas getting one from a dealer without handing over an extra 6-8k previously was an outstanding deal. The EV I just picked up the used prices plummeted by 15k+ in a matter of a few months. It's the only reason I bought it as flatout there's no way it's worth north of 60k new, let alone as a used car.
Toyota had the timing issue of coming in right when the EV bust happened. Lucid and Rivian watched their 18 month backlog of orders evaporate entirely to nothing right around when Toyota figured out how to keep the wheels attached and start selling their EV. And then it's just a really bad product. Even just on paper it's overpriced and underwhelming, but then you dig a little deeper and the range is damn almost halved at even 40 degrees F. No other EV struggles that much. To make matters worse, they can't even fast charger near freezing. So you've got an EV that can do 120 miles or so range and then it takes 8-10 hours to recharge. In 2023. I mean, if it was 2011 and the Nissan Leaf went 70 miles and couldn't DC fast charge at all, a car that can do 120 miles and can DC fast charge as long as it's not below 40 really wouldn't look so bad... but its' 2023. They've gotten a lot better in the last decade.
In comparison, MachE's flaws are minor. I mean, it's imo also a bit of a pile but in more minor ways. The software stinks, it overheats in five seconds and goes into limp mode, the charging is slow but at least it chargers faster than a Chevy Bolt rather than many times slower. If you're just looking at the non-GT ones, the fact that it overheats and goes into limp mode in five seconds and handles poorly isn't a huge deal. Pretty much all the crossover things handle poorly and less power means less overheating. Plus the MachE looks way better. If you're just looking for a basic A to B thing but want some style rather than a shoebox Bolt and don't mind spending an extra 20k for it, MachE. If you want something ugly like the BZ4X/Solterra that has less than half the range of a Bolt and takes many more hours to charge and is also 20k more expensive, Toyota's got just the thing for you =D
It's a buyer's market in the EV space now. I'd give it a few more months if you want the best deal and selection though. I think we'll see Rivian coming in with the discounts. Polestar already reversed itself on the no price wars, no incentives and has $3,750 on the hood... although there's plenty of used ones available for 15-20k less than new which is what I'd recommend. I don't see how Polestar/Volvo figures the 2 is a 50-70k car. I mean, just sit in V60 plugger at 70k compared. It's the same price as a loaded Polestar 2. If there wasn't a 20k price difference in the used market between a V60 plugger and the Polestar2, I'd be in the V60 for sure.
But what's the explanation for the Mach-e? It seems to be a flop too, even though it doesn't have the shortcomings of the BZ4X/Solterra. The Model Y may be the best selling car in the world, but it ranks like #9 here at home.
In Q1 of this year in the USA, the Mach-e (6,110 registrations) isn't selling nearly as well as the Model Y (93,294 registrations), but it's still selling a lot better than the bZ4X (1,570 registrations) and Solterra (1,399 registrations) - those latter two put together are only selling 1/2 of what the Mach-e is doing. So if you're Ford, it's a glass half-empty/half-full story.
See: https://insideevs.com/news/667516/us...-sales-2023q1/
I think Ford's move to the Tesla connector is a smart decision, and when that actually goes through so their customers can access the Tesla charging network, it will give their sales another boost. Many Tesla owners say that access to the Tesla charging network was a major factor in their choosing to buy the Tesla vehicle.
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 06-18-2023 at 04:16 PM..
I'm not sure anyone had high sales expectations for it, so I guess that maybe tempers any disappointment? I do wonder if they're playing it somewhat conservatively and that as they get more data back they might be able to push improvements to these vehicles that would make them a better value on range, performance, and/or charging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover
But what's the explanation for the Mach-e? It seems to be a flop too, even though it doesn't have the shortcomings of the BZ4X/Solterra. The Model Y may be the best selling car in the world, but it ranks like #9 here at home.
It's inaccurate to describe the Mach-E as a flop, so the explanation would be that you've got a weird take on what flop means or you don't really understand the numbers. It doesn't have that many production facilities dedicated to it and Ford probably only became serious about EV production fairly recently so it's probably producing at as about as fast a rate as Ford's able to manage battery supplies and other components. The Mach-E being built in Mexico is also for the European market, not just the NA market, and there are overall more danger of penalties in the European market so they need to shift more of the output to Europe. It is placed on a fairly "premium" level for pricing as it tries to sell itself as a crossover that's somewhat performance oriented or more stylized rather than just being electric, and it has thus far sold pretty much as well as Ford can produce them.
Not sure if you realize it, but when people say best selling vehicle in the world, that's in aggregate including the US, but does not mean that it's the best-selling vehicle in every single market or sub-market that together comprise the larger global market as the automotive industry is a global industry. There is no contradiction there.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-18-2023 at 05:07 PM..
I'm not sure anyone had high sales expectations for it, so I guess that maybe tempers any disappointment? I do wonder if they're playing it somewhat conservatively and that as they get more data back they might be able to push improvements to these vehicles that would make them a better value on range, performance, and/or charging.
It's inaccurate to describe the Mach-E as a flop, so the explanation would be that you've got a weird take on what flop means or you don't really understand the numbers. It doesn't have that many production facilities dedicated to it and Ford probably only became serious about EV production fairly recently so it's probably producing at as about as fast a rate as Ford's able to manage battery supplies and other components. The Mach-E being built in Mexico is also for the European market, not just the NA market, and there are overall more danger of penalties in the European market so they need to shift more of the output to Europe. It is placed on a fairly "premium" level for pricing as it tries to sell itself as a crossover that's somewhat performance oriented or more stylized rather than just being electric, and it has thus far sold pretty much as well as Ford can produce them.
Not sure if you realize it, but when people say best selling vehicle in the world, that's in aggregate including the US, but does not mean that it's the best-selling vehicle in every single market or sub-market that together comprise the larger global market as the automotive industry is a global industry. There is no contradiction there.
Toyota first showed 24 vehicle prototypes based on the new EV platform... and after the market's weak response to the bZ4X, they are not bringing those vehicles to market, and they are going back to overhaul the platform design. I don't know how else to view this as anything other than a massive failure. I've seen die-hard Toyota fans spin this whole situation as a positive, but, I think you really have to have a warm spot for Toyota to see it that way. The Toyota CEO has stepped down from that position.
I mean, the good news is, they're not continuing to push that inadequate engineering vision, and they're starting over and trying to do things right this time - so kudos for that, but it would have been a lot better if they didn't waste the time and money of a generation of platform development that they're basically going to toss. This is not a common thing in the car business - this level of failure. Of course, Toyota is an old-school company trying to make the pivot to a new line of business, so I know where the problems are coming from - all the "legacy" automakers are having a difficult time making competitive EVs and they're having trouble making any money at it - that's what the past couple of years have really shown as they've rolled out their first "modern" EVs.
I've got nothing against either Subaru or Toyota though - heck, I own a 2019 Forester now, and there's a fair chance I'll buy a RAV4 next... and I've happily owned many Hondas - all three companies make great ICE vehicles, but all three companies are struggling to make money and to compete with Tesla and BYD in the EV space. Ford and GM are doing a little better with their EVs but not thriving, and Stellantis and Mazda are way back there...
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 06-18-2023 at 06:21 PM..
I have to wonder if any potential buyer of a BZ4X would just rather have a RAV4 (hybrid or Prime). Toyota customers tend to be on the conservative side.
I’ve paid zero attention. What’s wrong with the Solterra?
For its price and its segment, the specs are pretty underwhelming compared to the competition. In the US, it also doesn't qualify for federal tax credits, but it's underwhelming compared to the competition by enough of a margin that it has unremarkable sales even in other markets where it's available. For its price, the range, the efficiency, performance, warranty, level 2 charge rate, and maximum DC charge rate are all just somewhat worse than almost all of the competing crossovers of similar size and price range. Not incredibly worse for the most part, just that in almost every major EV factor it's on the lower end of things except for price where it's middle range and fit/finish, interior, and looks where it's nondescript. And this is despite it being a slightly later launch than other vehicles in its category which arguably should have meant more advancements should have been worked in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover
Toyota first showed 24 vehicle prototypes based on the new EV platform... and after the market's weak response to the bZ4X, they are not bringing those vehicles to market, and they are going back to overhaul the platform design. I don't know how else to view this as anything other than a massive failure. I've seen die-hard Toyota fans spin this whole situation as a positive, but, I think you really have to have a warm spot for Toyota to see it that way. The Toyota CEO has stepped down from that position.
I mean, the good news is, they're not continuing to push that inadequate engineering vision, and they're starting over and trying to do things right this time - so kudos for that, but it would have been a lot better if they didn't waste the time and money of a generation of platform development that they're basically going to toss. This is not a common thing in the car business - this level of failure. Of course, Toyota is an old-school company trying to make the pivot to a new line of business, so I know where the problems are coming from - all the "legacy" automakers are having a difficult time making competitive EVs and they're having trouble making any money at it - that's what the past couple of years have really shown as they've rolled out their first "modern" EVs.
I've got nothing against either Subaru or Toyota though - heck, I own a 2019 Forester now, and there's a fair chance I'll buy a RAV4 next... and I've happily owned many Hondas - all three companies make great ICE vehicles, but all three companies are struggling to make money and to compete with Tesla and BYD in the EV space. Ford and GM are doing a little better with their EVs but not thriving, and Stellantis and Mazda are way back there...
Yea, I like Subarus a lot (and really like Lexus vehicles except for the recent-ish predator-face grills). I think they made a mistake by dragging their feet as well as working to drag the industry from electric vehicles, but I also think they can probably do a fairly quick improvement over the next several years and that might include finding incremental, but substantial ways to improve the eTNGA vehicles while they make new electric vehicle platforms.
I just got a $17,000-off email from the Subaru dealer in Braintree MA.
Quote:
We're taking up to* $17,000 off the New 2023 Subaru Solterra!
They have 5 in inventory.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
