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I don't think there is any doubt that women have not been treated the same as men. It is also clear that women have been vocal about expecting and demanding equal treatment. I do get somewhat lost with the details. I am sure some women on this forum can clarify what is reasonable.
My confusion started with one issue many years ago and I am still confused about the same issue. Tens of millions of men were drafted for WWII or the Vietnam Wars but women were totally exempted. None of us want to see any future wars or military concerns but if that arises, should women be drafted? Shouldn't women's "jobs" in the military also be equal to those of men? That would mean frontline combat and police if needed.
I also have concerns for the workplace. I am retired now but worked in various public and private businesses where 30-60% of the employees were women. In everyone of the businesses there was a major consistent issue with equal treatment. It seems that a high percentage of women showed up for work in full sex regalia. That would include heels, push up bras and other appliances to accentuate sexual appeal, perfumes, makeup, clothing, hair styles and semi nudity including legs bare to at least the thighs, and bare arms, shoulders and chest right down to the cleavage. It seems that some men have not handled this well. Shame on them. But doesn't it seem that something still needs to change for women to be taken more seriously and be treated equally?
Definitely. One woman's experience doesn't speak for all women. We have many different stories.
Born in 1947 doesn't mean living the adult woman's life.
I was born in 1953 and remember many of the unfairnesses and they go way beyond "having to cook." Of course I don't remember until I started paying attention, which was around 1967, and reading the literature and history, and being affected myself, which I won't be a single data point by describing, but charlygal is right on spot.
Women have a lot more legal rights today but I don't think that translates to being more content or happier.
In fact, for women in middle classes or lower it seems the stress with daily living has never been higher. Women today who have children are expected to work full time and still manage household and childcare duties. Yes, in some households men help but the truth is the vast majority don't contribute equally. So life for many women is this impossible rat race of exhaustion and constant juggling of all of the things they feel they need to do as a career woman, wife and mother.
Many things are still expected to be the duty of the mom no matter how much women have been "liberated" and this pressure is hard for some men to understand. At my kids' public school they still ask for volunteers to be "room moms", never saw a mention of a "room dad". When Halloween rolls around, it's moms figuring out the costumes. At Christmas it's mothers doing the holiday baking and gifts. On local neighborhood online forums it's always women posting pleas to find childcare, never men. Throw in a divorce and the stress can ramp up exponentially. I believe that secretly many women would gladly trade their "liberation" at least for awhile if they could go back to a time where they weren't expected to do it all.
It was terrible. Women stayed home and took care of their children. If they didn't have children they had to prepare meals, play bridge, read, and do all sorts of degrading things. They were treated as second-class people. Men and boys opened doors for them, lit their cigarettes, took off their hats in their presence, and even called them ma'am. Eighty percent didn't know enough to get a divorce and become single mothers.
Didn't know enough? How about weren't able to get a divorce? There was no such thing as no fault divorce. Which meant she had to prove adultery or abandonment. Beating her wasn't a reason. Back then it was ok to beat your wife or rape her.
Societies priorities were different. Prioritiies for men and women were focused on family, not jobs. The roles suited what the PRIORITIES were.
That said, women could work if they wanted to, they have for hundreds of years. I suggest reading Pioneer Girl, a research volume that details -- and I mean painstaking detail -- the life of Laura Ingalls Wilder and all the people she encountered in her life. Almost ALL the women worked, homesteaded, owned shops, etc. Her sisters both worked. One was a telegraph operator, and her daughter was a writer. Her sister in law homesteaded 160 acres as a single women, living alone.
The idea that women were always treated like garbage is beyond false. It's a myth, a narrative to sell the idea that men are bad. women are good to younger and younger generations as they get further and further away from the truth.
Today's feminism is a horrific twisting of history. For example: Women in this country did not want the right to vote. The vocal minority that was pushing women's right to vote had a very difficult time getting enough women on board to make the issue ... well .. an issue. Women's views were the same as their husbands because they married people that had the same values, so they felt their voices were heard. Which never happens today, which is why there is so much divorce. Add in that voting was tied to conscription -- getting called to serve in the army -- and women did NOT want that responsibility.
It's a myth, a shame, a way to cause fights, arguments, problems, anger, and create victims. It's a disgrace. And trying to discuss this with today's feminist ultimately devolves into them yelling... Because Patriarchy!!!! at you. No reasoning, no substance, no knowledge of history. Just yelling.
I don’t know what planet you live on— but intelligent women definitely wanted the right to vote. How old are you?
I don't think there is any doubt that women have not been treated the same as men. It is also clear that women have been vocal about expecting and demanding equal treatment. I do get somewhat lost with the details. I am sure some women on this forum can clarify what is reasonable.
My confusion started with one issue many years ago and I am still confused about the same issue. Tens of millions of men were drafted for WWII or the Vietnam Wars but women were totally exempted. None of us want to see any future wars or military concerns but if that arises, should women be drafted? Shouldn't women's "jobs" in the military also be equal to those of men? That would mean frontline combat and police if needed.
I also have concerns for the workplace. I am retired now but worked in various public and private businesses where 30-60% of the employees were women. In everyone of the businesses there was a major consistent issue with equal treatment. It seems that a high percentage of women showed up for work in full sex regalia. That would include heels, push up bras and other appliances to accentuate sexual appeal, perfumes, makeup, clothing, hair styles and semi nudity including legs bare to at least the thighs, and bare arms, shoulders and chest right down to the cleavage. It seems that some men have not handled this well. Shame on them. But doesn't it seem that something still needs to change for women to be taken more seriously and be treated equally?
Regarding the military, it is women themselves who have fought for years to be allowed to be in combat roles, and men who refused to let them until pretty recently.
In WWII, it was women who staffed the munitions factories once all the men were gone, women who made their weapons and equipment (remember Rosie the Riveter?). Once the men came back, the women were no longer allowed to keep those jobs, as an aside.
Women have a lot more legal rights today but I don't think that translates to being more content or happier.
In fact, for women in middle classes or lower it seems the stress with daily living has never been higher. Women today who have children are expected to work full time and still manage household and childcare duties. Yes, in some households men help but the truth is the vast majority don't contribute equally. So life for many women is this impossible rat race of exhaustion and constant juggling of all of the things they feel they need to do as a career woman, wife and mother.
Many things are still expected to be the duty of the mom no matter how much women have been "liberated" and this pressure is hard for some men to understand. At my kids' public school they still ask for volunteers to be "room moms", never saw a mention of a "room dad". When Halloween rolls around, it's moms figuring out the costumes. At Christmas it's mothers doing the holiday baking and gifts. On local neighborhood online forums it's always women posting pleas to find childcare, never men. Throw in a divorce and the stress can ramp up exponentially. I believe that secretly many women would gladly trade their "liberation" at least for awhile if they could go back to a time where they weren't expected to do it all.
I think the stress of surviving economically in today's world affects both women and men, to be fair.
Some have mentioned women staying home and being happy back in the good old days. I took a history course once and one chapter dealt with women of color always working outside the home. I had never given that a thought before until we went over that topic.
I remember in my neighborhood, the women ran the households. The men worked at regular jobs, the women would have part time jobs cleaning houses or working in the fields, but they were back home by noon or in time to make dinner. I know my mom liked having her own money, so she didn't mind doing these little jobs.
From what I am reading it seems a lot of it depends on whether the woman was okay with the housewife role or not. I think one bad thing is how women are expected to work crazy in the rat race. I hate having to work and do that kind of stuff, answering to a horrible boss, getting tens of thousands in student debt, horrible coworkers, dealing with all the crap in the working world. I'll take cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids and husband over any of that!
For a very long time, the structure of society was organized by men, for the comfort and convenience of men. A man married a woman so that she could clean his house, prepare his meals, service his sexual needs, and bear his children. That's what a wife was for, to serve her husband and make his life easier. I know of the 1940s and 1950s only from women in my mother's generation and from history books, but I saw clearly how society was structured in the 1960s, when I was growing up.
In our household and those of our neighbors and relatives, the man was king and made all of the decisions. He never touched a dish or a broom or any other household implement. A woman had no credit in her own name, and no hope of obtaining any. Any financial paperwork had to be approved by her husband. With many children at home that were her sole responsibility, my mother had no way to earn money. My father basically owned her, just as he owned all of his children. He thought of us as extensions of his own self.
Feminism changed all of this because it opened up options for women. Women were able to escape marriages that were like prisons and stand on their own financially. Even better, women were able to educate themselves, get good jobs, control their own fertility, and live life on their own terms, without having to depend on a man. If they married, it was for mutual support and companionship, not to put themselves under the control of a husband for life.
As a young girl, it was amazing to watch this change and see women I'd known all my life as servants of men take their first independent steps. Many older women with only a high-school education went back to school and become lawyers, accountants, college professors, or entered other professional careers. Others took entry-level jobs in local companies and worked their way up to positions of responsibility.
Feminism is about equality of opportunity. The old rules about what a woman could become, or do, were left behind. Although not entirely, as we can see by throwbacks in this thread and elsewhere.
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What a Croc
