Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I need to correct you here. Sun City Carolina Lakes (Fort Mill/Indian Land, SC) also has a golf course running through it. I live across from the 15th hole. It would not be a Sun City if it didn't. That's what makes the difference between a Sun City and a Del Webb named community. Now if you are saying that SCHH actually OWNS the golf courses, then you are correct. Our golf course is independently owned, but then we don't have to use HOA fees for the upkeep. So the golfers here can also cart it to the links and use their own carts. In fact there are many of us non-golfers that also have carts and use them to get around all the time.
Roth
Yes SCHH owns their 3 golf courses.
Carolina Lakes Golf Club is lovely. I have enjoyed playing there. Sun City has an active Men's and Ladies Golf Association that plays there but....and a big but....Carolina Lakes Golf Club is independently owned. This can mean quite a bit to a person basing their retirement/living situation around golf as many of we serious golfers do. There are many cases where the golf club was sold, resold, etc. and in some cases ended up being closed. This could be devastating to one who bought a home on the course and to those who chose a place to live because of the golf course(s).
Rose Hill Golf Club, Bluffton SC is a good example. The owner closed the course.
"Rose Hill could finally be ready to mature all over again following a miraculous rebirth. The club reopened its doors in August 2008 after a closure that lasted nearly two-and-a-half years. Saved by the Rose Hill Plantation's Property Owners Association, the course transformed from an original 27-hole routing into 18 holes, where two extra par 4s serve as practice playgrounds."
I believe there are still owner versus owner lawsuits going on about the purchase.
There are major differences between a golf course open to the public and private clubs. This has been an ongoing/heated discussion among club members/golfers and will go on and on. Also a discussion most non-golfers could care about. Golf is a metaphor for life for many of us retired folks. Also a major reason many of us move to golf meccas like SC. If there was not year round golf in SC then SC would not have interested me as a retirement location.
I do belief the courses at SCHH are self supporting and might even make money for the association thus not a drain/cost item on the HOA's dues as many amenities are. If left up to many association members, especially in retirement locations, they would prefer amenities be optional and on a pay per use basis but that is another subject. SCHH has 12 Pickle Ball Courts (each court 880sq ft) and 8 are lighted. If I were a Pickle Ball player this could be important to me but as I am not, I must ask....WTF is Pickle Ball.......LOL
I admit I might I have vertical (not anal) thinking about golf as it is critical to my personal life style.
Carolina Lakes Golf Club is lovely. I have enjoyed playing there. Sun City has an active Men's and Ladies Golf Association that plays there but....and a big but....Carolina Lakes Golf Club is independently owned. This can mean quite a bit to a person basing their retirement/living situation around golf as many of we serious golfers do. There are many cases where the golf club was sold, resold, etc. and in some cases ended up being closed. This could be devastating to one who bought a home on the course and to those who chose a place to live because of the golf course(s).
Rose Hill Golf Club, Bluffton SC is a good example. The owner closed the course.
"Rose Hill could finally be ready to mature all over again following a miraculous rebirth. The club reopened its doors in August 2008 after a closure that lasted nearly two-and-a-half years. Saved by the Rose Hill Plantation's Property Owners Association, the course transformed from an original 27-hole routing into 18 holes, where two extra par 4s serve as practice playgrounds."
I believe there are still owner versus owner lawsuits going on about the purchase.
There are major differences between a golf course open to the public and private clubs. This has been an ongoing/heated discussion among club members/golfers and will go on and on. Also a discussion most non-golfers could care about. Golf is a metaphor for life for many of us retired folks. Also a major reason many of us move to golf meccas like SC. If there was not year round golf in SC then SC would not have interested me as a retirement location.
I do belief the courses at SCHH are self supporting and might even make money for the association thus not a drain/cost item on the HOA's dues as many amenities are. If left up to many association members, especially in retirement locations, they would prefer amenities be optional and on a pay per use basis but that is another subject. SCHH has 12 Pickle Ball Courts (each court 880sq ft) and 8 are lighted. If I were a Pickle Ball player this could be important to me but as I am not, I must ask....WTF is Pickle Ball.......LOL
I admit I might I have vertical (not anal) thinking about golf as it is critical to my personal life style.
I think the times they are a changing. Golf is a sport in decline - the next generation of golfers is smaller than the current one - and many clubs - regardless of their ownership structure - are going to encounter difficulties down the road.
If you think having a HOA owning/controlling a golf course confers immunity from the woes - you should look at the history of quite a few courses in Florida - especially south Florida (some of my parents' friends moved into places like that). 55+ communities where people retired early - a lot in their late 50's - specifically to play golf. Well people get old. And - as they get old - some die - some get sick. Although many can and do continue playing until about age 75-80 or so - the numbers start to decline pretty sharply after that. So communities are left with many fewer golfers - an albatross of a golf course - and - in many cases - older people who simply can't afford to/don't want to pay for a golf course. So something has to give. FWIW - between the time the situation starts to deteriorate and the time when things get restructured - a lot of people pretty much wind up with an albatross of a house too. People who want to play golf don't want to buy in a community where the course isn't in top notch condition - and people who don't play golf don't want to pay for a golf course.
Another issue in the mix arises for people who like to play golf in an organized fashion - with groups of men/women/couples. These groups can change over the years. As people get old/sick - have to move for various reasons - whatever. We've seen people who've had to move - but who have stayed in this general area and continued to play wherever they used to play with the people they used to play with. You can't do that at a golf club where membership is restricted to residents only.
Buying a place that has something else going for it - like a great location - confers some immunity. But these Sun City type of communities are often pretty much in the middle of nowhere. And there are hundreds of thousands of square miles of pine tree farms in the south just waiting to be torn down for the next new development. Buying in a newer place that has relatively young people will also buy you some time. But - if most people in the place are 70 or so - the time bomb is ticking.
BTW - I live pretty much in a "golf central" part of the world. There is only one HOA that I know of that has been successful over the pretty long run (like 20 years) in running a private golf course that is part of the HOA - a course that all residents are required to subsidize. It is not an age restricted community, And the price point is pretty high (houses run from about $500k-$3 million). OTOH - the houses in that HOA regularly sell for a fair amount less than properties where the golf course is not part of the HOA.
My husband and I looked into this aspect of golfing extensively when we moved here. The thing we liked the most about our area in terms of golf is there are tons of golf options close/very close to us. In lots of different flavors (although none is in an age-restricted community IIRC). If one facility starts to have problems and/or no longer suits us - we can move to another. We have in fact made the move once - after we'd been here about 10 years - from a local country club to the TPC Sawgrass. And if/when the TPC no longer suits our golfing needs - there are still plenty of other options here (more than when we first moved here). Of course - if we can't play golf in the future - or don't care to - we can just dump our membership (and the associated fees). Robyn
P.S. Nothing in a HOA is written in stone. Although it may be more or less difficult to change declarations and bylaws and the like (depending on what you're trying to change and what state you're talking about) - it is certainly possible.
I understand all you said and I agree with much of it. That is why I chose not to live where a golf course is part of our development. I have been there, done that twice (IL and MA) so I learned as I went along.
One thing my friend in SCHH and I believe is that as long as Pulte is still building/developing homes then their financial picture is fairly solid. Meaning a corporation (Pulte) with deep pockets is behind them including ownership of the golf courses. Few of the present owners in SHCC will ever see the day Pulte does not control SHCC. Harsh to say but Pulte controlling the place will probably outlive most of them. If I was in my 60's and looking to purchase a life style for the next 20 to 30 years (I hope), these deep pockets would be a critical part of my decision.
I have several friends at The Village that bought that life style based on the Declarant being around for their lifetime to maintain the present level of operation.
I also had friends that bought into golf course developments that were unable or unwilling to pay what it took to maintain such. Some developments took Draconian action (mandatory membership) such as Seabrook Island took which they are still having legal issues over. Some have cut back so much their course is little more then a cow pasture. Tough when older people cannot financially maintain the life style they bought into, but sorry to say, quite common in retirement meccas like FL and AZ. Another common cry is well I cannot not/do not use the amenity so why am I paying for it.
Not to pick each deal/place apart as there are examples of all configurations, but a common denominator for failure/problems was when the residents did not own the course. Add the general decline in the golf business and the course changed the rules/and or went out of business. I was part of a deal (the one in IL) where "our private club" was all of a sudden open to the public, league play, outings, dining room closed, locker/bag room theft started, etc. I lived on the course and I ended up joining another golf club.
My friend in SHCC says he is happy the way the Pulte operates the place and he does not want the inmates (owners) running the asylum........LOL
Hi johngolf - Yes - having a developer with deep pockets still in the picture - selling dirt - is another way to have some degree of immunity. Because the developer needs the amenities in top shape to attract buyers. That's assuming a community is pretty developed to start with - the amenities already exist - and we don't wind up going through another 2008 recession/real estate bust (real estate booms/busts aren't uncommon in Florida - this last one was the third we've through since we moved to Florida in the 70's).
As a side note - if someone is looking at a CDD (community development district) that relies on bond issuance to install/maintain amenities - you have to go over the financials with a fine tooth comb. For example - the IRS recently ruled that the municipal bonds issued by The Villages aren't tax free. If this ruling is upheld - it could have a big impact on the bottom line (because borrowing costs would go up).
Forms of deep pockets other than developers work too. Our TPC facility is an example of that. Of course - there are always trade-offs. Our TPC facility is semi-private. Which means in our case that we have to accommodate resort guests - corporate outings - and 2 major golf tournaments a year (The Players and the web.com championship).* If we absolutely insisted on playing every Monday and Thursday with the same group at 9:10 am - well it wouldn't work. But we're flexible in terms of our play - so it isn't an issue for us.
In terms of our TPC - what deep pockets means is that one of the 2 courses there - the Valley Course - where the web.com is played - closed in March for 7 months for a total overhaul (new bulkheads - fairways - greens - landscaping - etc.). Don't know how many millions that's costing - but it's not costing us much extra. While the Valley Course has been closed - we've explored other golf facilities in the area. The TPC arranged for us to have reciprocity - we could still play at the Stadium Course at the TPC - but it costs us a lot more to play the Stadium Course than the Valley Course and the Stadium Course is WAY over my head. In contrast - the Valley Course is pretty perfect IMO. Playable for average hackers like me - but very challenging for good golfers.
Anyway - exploring other courses has been a real eye opener for us. None is in the kind of shape we're used to. None has the amenities we're used to (like having course advisers coming around with cold towels in the summer). Many have an unreasonable number of holes that aren't to my taste or the taste of many high handicap golfers (long forced marsh carries - very common here in the south where developers turn wetlands that can't be developed into parts of golf courses). And the best of the courses we've played are either very expensive (dues in excess of $500/month) or very public and very crowded (with golfers stacked up on holes like planes circling a busy airport waiting to land). So it seems like there's always some kind of trade-off. And people have to find the trade-off that works best for them.
In terms of quite a few newer places in Florida - the basic structure is that the developer owns the golf course/country club - but intends to sell when the development is complete - with the owners having a right of first refusal. This is spelled out in the offering documents. So - if one is looking at newer places - it's best to ask what will happen when the developer leaves - assuming it isn't spelled out.
Several other thoughts come to mind. First - I'd never live on a golf course. For several reasons. Like you don't know what the future holds for any golf course. And - you lose a lot of privacy. Our HOA has a golf course - not the one we belong to now - and we're glad in retrospect that we didn't buy a lot on the golf course (mostly for privacy reasons). Second - I'd avoid age-restricted communities. Because you have a much better chance of running into problems 10-15-20 years down the road if all of your neighbors were old to start with and are getting older and older - and sicker and dying. Third - I'd avoid communities/areas that don't attract younger people (because there are - for example - not a lot of decent work opportunities). Having younger people in an area increases the options a community has if it runs into trouble (we have 55+ communities in Florida that have converted to "regular" communities to avoid financial disaster when all the residents started pushing 80).
Overall - it's a lot to think about. And there is no "one size fits all" solution IMO. Robyn
*Playing on "resort" courses where major tournaments are played is a mixed blessing. On the one hand - it means that the courses are very well maintained - have things like "tournament sand" in the sand traps - and the amenities are excellent. On the other hand - it means that the courses can be very difficult to play during the months when they're getting "tournament ready". I love playing on "tournament ready" greens - but "tournament ready" rough would give me fits if I were a serious golfer - which I'm not. Also - when it comes to major tournaments - like The Players - well the Stadium Course is cart paths only for about 5 months before the tournament - to maximize the chances that it's in the best possible shape for the tournament.
I pay about $1,600 annually for home insurance. Due to the proximity to the coast, there is a $5,000 deductible for wind and hail, everything else is $500. I don't think you will find many policies that will offer lower wind and hail deductibles.....certainly not at an acceptable price. I also have some discounts in this price for hurricane shutters, multiple policies, etc....insurer is USAA.
Airport is Savannah. About a 30 minute drive. Good parking garage that I have used for up to a week. Easy in and out. However, airline prices gouge you here. There is one cheap one that only goes to NE. Hilton Head AP only has a few flights and their prices are even worse. Some people drive down to Jacksonville (2.5 hour), spend the night and get a hotel free long term parking deal so they can fly out with cheaper fares (Southwest, etc.)
With our various medical issues, we find it much easier to drive to our destinations. I-95 is only minutes away for N/S traffic and I-16 is close to go directly to Atlanta or I-75. Although direct routes look shorter on maps, it is usually easier to take the interstates, even if you are driving in right angles. Fastest way to Texas is south to Jacksonville and then straight west on I-10.
Re:golf courses. SCHH's courses are owned by the Community Association (me and all the other residents), not Pulte. The two "big" courses were breaking even financially, the last time I looked, but the relatively new "executive" wasn't... that may not be the case now..you will have to get the true financial picture elsewhere.
We DO solicit outside golfers to play, we can use their money. So it is not "private" in the sense you only see fellow residents. Only about 20% of our residents even play golf. The aging of the community and the eventual reduction in golfers is a strategic concern just like at other similar communities. A constant turnover of the properties with new, (relatively) young buyers is needed to ensure a fresh supply of golfers with some miles left in their knees and shoulders to play golf. This means a strong marketing program for the community when Pulte is gone and steps to keep the community vital and attractive to age 55 buyers are needed. We have residents working on just such issues with strategic planning.
Up until the last few years, it was an unwritten rule that golf would stand on it's own two feet and no community funds were (directly) put into their budget. However, in recent years, the community and golf budgets have been merged into one and I cannot tell you how much, if any, the courses are being subsidized by everyone. Currently, I do not think it is much, if any. Most of those who do not play golf have no desire to pay for other's hobby. The argument is put forth that it may be a necessary sacrifice because it helps everybody's property values. My feelings are that I already subsidized golf when I paid extra $ to Pulte in my home purchase price that included construction of amenities like the golf courses and I do not owe them any more. A little bit of help (hopefully a loan) if needed, I can understand, but if it ever came to major $ to support declining golf courses, I would not be in favor.
The whole golf economy in the area is a fragile thing....the Rose Hill case was a good example with the division between the "golf" and "horse" sides of the community. There are many golf courses up and down Hwy 278 and they are all competing for the golfers. We have some unrealistic residents who expect Augusta National quality courses and dirt cheap green fees. Luckily the organization is run by smart people who usually keep a balance between the various interest groups. The courses are evidently is very good shape and the green fees seem to be competitive with the local area. Quantity discounts are available for residents. Hopefully, as more homes are completed on the north side of the highway, there will be more new residents to share the costs of the community, and if they are all golfers, that will be great.
I wish someone had written a Harvard Case Study of the whole Rose Hill golf episode. One fact that came out during the bitter struggle between resident groups over purchasing the golf course (from a developer who wanted to put condos on the land...but was thwarted by zoning...and tried to have that overturned by Texas bankruptcy court) was that leaving the course as "a park" would still cost a substantial amount of money to maintain it in a reasonable condition. Deserting it entirely quickly saw it grow into a jungle...not something a property owner with a golf view would want to have in their backyard. So owning a golf course, or three, is a complex business with many ways to fail. That is, I think, the reason the "Del Webb" developments have no self-owned courses....let that be someone else's problem and don't complicate the development. Also, many of the other Sun City communities DO NOT own their courses....they were sold (by Del Webb?) long ago to an outside golf company.
RE: Things to do. We are big fans of Savannah. We spend several weekends a year there in a hotel (even tho it's only about a 30 minute drive to downtown) and do the dining, entertainment and tourism thing. The historic squares offer a pedestrian paradise of historic sites to tour, fine restaurants and some nightlife. Our favorite is the historic Savannah Theatre that puts on live entertainment year round. They are easily found on TripAdvisor. Savannah Sand Gnats are a Class A Mets farm team. Ticket prices are dirt cheap, especially for seniors. Old, but comfortable stadium. College football is mostly on TV. Closest would be Savannah State and then Georgia Southern in Statesboro. (GS beat Florida last year!) Savannah has a civic center and auditorium that attracts some big name performers and shows, but the Johnny Mercer Theatre isn't quiet big enough to get the biggest names or shows....i'd say we are in the second tier. The auditorium gets the usual Barnum and Bailey Circus, Globetrotters, etc. Hilton Head has an arts scene with symphony and theater that many folks enjoy. Dining out is the number one recreation. Tons of restaurants on HHI and in Savannah. As far as life within Sun City, there is just about anything you could ever have wanted to do. I advise people to have a personal activity (anything from line dancing to ham radio to ceramics), a community service activity (serve on a committee, work a shift at the front gate, etc) and an activity outside the gate (school volunteer, church, social,, support group). Although my wife and I are not big activity people, we still have to have a big laminated monthly wall calendar to keep track of our schedules.
The info on golf courses has been SO helpful to me. I'm embarrassed to say I never thought that through, though I was aware of one or two courses struggling in places we've visited over the years. The course in our community is not managed by the HOA and is gorgeous right now, but I think I will take those golf course homes (and their higher cost) off my list for the upgrade house in the future. Good stuff to know.
Last edited by Montanama; 08-25-2014 at 10:18 AM..
I have never understood the appeal of a golf course house. Why would I pay a premium to listen to golfers driving by in those carts and talking at 5am? And golf balls flying into my yard and house? No thanks.
And it will happen. The golf course here is behind the houses across the street and I've found a golf ball in the yard already.
I have never understood the appeal of a golf course house. Why would I pay a premium to listen to golfers driving by in those carts and talking at 5am? And golf balls flying into my yard and house? No thanks.
And it will happen. The golf course here is behind the houses across the street and I've found a golf ball in the yard already.
We thought at first that the golf course view was attractive. Then wound up changing our mind about what we wanted in our backyard. Another issue when you're on a golf course is that everything you do in your backyard is exposed to public view. So if you want to read the paper on your porch in your nightie - or do some landscaping that might not please certain people - well your life is an open book. Robyn
...Re:golf courses. SCHH's courses are owned by the Community Association (me and all the other residents), not Pulte. The two "big" courses were breaking even financially, the last time I looked, but the relatively new "executive" wasn't... that may not be the case now..you will have to get the true financial picture elsewhere.
We DO solicit outside golfers to play, we can use their money. So it is not "private" in the sense you only see fellow residents. Only about 20% of our residents even play golf. The aging of the community and the eventual reduction in golfers is a strategic concern just like at other similar communities. A constant turnover of the properties with new, (relatively) young buyers is needed to ensure a fresh supply of golfers with some miles left in their knees and shoulders to play golf. This means a strong marketing program for the community when Pulte is gone and steps to keep the community vital and attractive to age 55 buyers are needed. We have residents working on just such issues with strategic planning.
Up until the last few years, it was an unwritten rule that golf would stand on it's own two feet and no community funds were (directly) put into their budget. However, in recent years, the community and golf budgets have been merged into one and I cannot tell you how much, if any, the courses are being subsidized by everyone. Currently, I do not think it is much, if any. Most of those who do not play golf have no desire to pay for other's hobby. The argument is put forth that it may be a necessary sacrifice because it helps everybody's property values. My feelings are that I already subsidized golf when I paid extra $ to Pulte in my home purchase price that included construction of amenities like the golf courses and I do not owe them any more. A little bit of help (hopefully a loan) if needed, I can understand, but if it ever came to major $ to support declining golf courses, I would not be in favor.
The whole golf economy in the area is a fragile thing....the Rose Hill case was a good example with the division between the "golf" and "horse" sides of the community. There are many golf courses up and down Hwy 278 and they are all competing for the golfers. We have some unrealistic residents who expect Augusta National quality courses and dirt cheap green fees. Luckily the organization is run by smart people who usually keep a balance between the various interest groups. The courses are evidently is very good shape and the green fees seem to be competitive with the local area. Quantity discounts are available for residents. Hopefully, as more homes are completed on the north side of the highway, there will be more new residents to share the costs of the community, and if they are all golfers, that will be great.
I wish someone had written a Harvard Case Study of the whole Rose Hill golf episode. One fact that came out during the bitter struggle between resident groups over purchasing the golf course (from a developer who wanted to put condos on the land...but was thwarted by zoning...and tried to have that overturned by Texas bankruptcy court) was that leaving the course as "a park" would still cost a substantial amount of money to maintain it in a reasonable condition. Deserting it entirely quickly saw it grow into a jungle...not something a property owner with a golf view would want to have in their backyard. So owning a golf course, or three, is a complex business with many ways to fail. That is, I think, the reason the "Del Webb" developments have no self-owned courses....let that be someone else's problem and don't complicate the development. Also, many of the other Sun City communities DO NOT own their courses....they were sold (by Del Webb?) long ago to an outside golf company...
Interesting - and I did a little digging that you might find useful. Although Pulte doesn't *own* the 2 "regular courses" (which seem to be Okatie and Hidden Cypress) - it does - according to various websites - manage them. Probably for some kind of fee(s) that the HOA/homeowners pay.
I'd be very wary of this type of non-arm's length transaction. Especially if an association (and/or various sub-associations) hasn't been turned over to homeowners yet. I know that homeowners in Florida are entitled to lots of financial info even before a turnover - but don't know what the law is in SC.
I see no evidence that these courses are being marketed all that well. For example - lots of golfers use web sites like Golf Now to book public or semi-public/semi-private courses. Golf Now is a good way for a course to get butts in a cart at tee times that might otherwise go empty (tee times are like airplane seats - every empty tee time or empty airplane seat when the plane takes off is money lost forever). You can't use Golf Now at these courses. Although it seems one can book by phone. But only 48 hours in advance - Sun City, Hilton Head - Hidden Cypress Golf Club. And you can't find rates on line. How old fashioned is that?
Also - there is no evidence I could find that these courses do anything to attract the kind of business that's needed for a high end course to do ok these days. Whether you're talking about corporate outings/retreats or weddings. About 7 years ago - the TPC here tore down its 1970's club house and built a new place that's about 75,000 square feet. It wanted to attract corporate outings and - especially - weddings. Don't know about the corporate outings - but it's been great on the wedding front (something like 200 or so last year).
Perhaps Pulte is trying to maintain the image that these courses are somehow exclusive (especially when it comes to new buyers they're trying to sell to) - when they really aren't? In areas where there are lots of golf courses - like the Hilton Head area - and the area where I live for that matter - getting golfers on a course is important unless a small number of members/guests are willing to pay very high fees (which isn't the case at most courses).
Here - when courses get into trouble (and more than a few are) - they often call in outside professional management. Outfits like Clubcorp. I can't comment on which management outfits are better than others. But all of them are pretty expert at trying to market golf courses best they can. To get those butts in those golf carts. Especially in low season (which might be a 1 pm tee time in the south in the summer).
If I lived in this place - or was interested in it - especially if I wasn't a golfer - these are questions I'd have. FWIW - if only 20% of your owners golf - well that is a super low % IMO considering the area in general. In my HOA - which has about 1100 houses - that's about the % we have. And we're not an age-restricted community - and we're close to a metro area where lot of young professionals can find jobs. Robyn
I can't remember if I posted this or not, but we ended up in Las Vegas. Mainly because I can breathe much better in the low humidity.
Quite a difference.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
