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Any teaching that denounces Gods character of being infinitely holy, completely perfect in all he does , all loving, full of compassion, etc...is from the pit of hell.
Maybe I'm not understanding, but are you saying if I believe God is holy, perfect in ALL He does, makes no mistakes, sees the end from the beginning, has all power in heaven and earth (Dan 4:35)...
...this is from the pit of hell?
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Originally Posted by 007.5
My opinion of the biblical Creator is based on his inspired Word to all of Mankind ... specific instructions on how he created everything , how sin entered the world, the results of sin and what he did to redeem our sin, and what he will do to redeem the physical Earth from the decay that it is currently in.
Mine too - I said God foreknew the Fall, and has actually used it to bring about man's destiny. What's so diabolical about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
The mistake which many make, is that their truthsource isnt the Bible and is instead based on feelings or what someone has taught them without verifying it to be sound doctrine by checking The Bible .
It's all in there kid - that's the problem, it's a thick book and most are overlooking parts of it.
Instead you should believe that it's literally true that God used a global flood to kill off most of the world's population, and that's not somehow extremely cruel? Sounds like a double standard to me.
Cruel? It was just. Just like the execution of Ted Bundy and other serial killers who murdered so many people. What they got was deserved. So it was for the exceedingly evil people who perished in the flood. They were as rotten as they could be and there was no longer any way for the Lord's Spirit to reach their hearts.
It only sounds like a double standard to you because you have no trust that God told the truth through Moses in the book of Genesis. But he did indeed tell the truth and the evidence of it is abundant.
Cruel? It was just. Just like the execution of Ted Bundy and other serial killers who murdered so many people. What they got was deserved. So it was for the exceedingly evil people who perished in the flood. They were as rotten as they could be and there was no longer any way for the Lord's Spirit to reach their hearts.
It only sounds like a double standard to you because you have no trust that God told the truth through Moses in the book of Genesis. But he did indeed tell the truth and the evidence of it is abundant.
In Bundy's (and other's) case, justice was executed at a human level - but in no way should we presume that "there was no longer any way for the Lord's Spirit to reach their hearts".
We must answer these questions biblically: Is there anything too hard for God? Can He not work in (any) man, as the Potter works with clay? Are the inhabitants of the earth too difficult, or are they "reputed as nothing"? Does He do "according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth", or is the bible a liar?
That's the problem with the Church today - they have a little bitty god.
What's wrong with believing that God created through evolution over millions of years? Any god that uses evolution and death to make us is extremely cruel.
The thing is, God does allow death and suffering today, and has for at least thousands of years (assuming a young Earth). God has shown quite plainly that He is willing to use death and suffering (not to mention much worse cruelty in the afterlife), as long as it has a purpose . Even a purpose as weird as punishing us for the sin of our long-gone ancestors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
More importantly, if there was no first Adam to bring sin and death into the world, there was no need for Christ, Whom the Bible calls the last Adam, to die and save us from sin and death.
Many Christians see the story of Adam and Eve as metaphorical.
I came across this short treatise on the subject and thought it would make for some discussion on this often misled belief amongst Followers of Christ to try and make God fit our cultures philosophy :
The Cruel God of Evolution
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Some people think that they can believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and at the same time believe God created through evolution. These people are called theistic evolutionists or progressive creationists. What kind of nature would a god have who creates through the death that is essential to evolution?
First, death would have to have begun from the very moment of creation. Death, disease, pain and suffering would have had to originate with this god. Long before man, according to evolution, dinosaurs were eating other dinosaurs, and entire species were dying out. Rather than loving us, such a god would be indifferent and capricious. The god that would use evolution to make living things would have no right to punish sin. He would have had no right to bring a worldwide Flood to punish sinful man. This kind of god would be nothing more than a bully. Such a god would not be likely to have given us his word. And nothing the Bible says about him could be true. If the Bible really is from him, it is full of untrue claims. Any god who created using evolution is not the God of the Bible. If you think about it, the god of evolution sounds surprisingly like the devil.
What's wrong with believing that God created through evolution over millions of years? Any god that uses evolution and death to make us is extremely cruel. More importantly, if there was no first Adam to bring sin and death into the world, there was no need for Christ, Whom the Bible calls the last Adam, to die and save us from sin and death.
Prayer: I rejoice, dear Father, because you are gracious and merciful to me. Amen.
References: Creation, 9-11/99. pp. 42-45, "The god of an old Earth."
Watch this video "Noah's Ark and Dinosaurs" with Russ Miller from Compass International. Im not to well versed on such things as this, but quite honestly it is very interesting. Dont get caught up in the non Christian views. I think this video would help you.
In Bundy's (and other's) case, justice was executed at a human level - but in no way should we presume that "there was no longer any way for the Lord's Spirit to reach their hearts".
You are the one presuming things. God Almighty is the One who determines who deserves what because He sees the hearts and attitude of all men and women. What He did was just...very, very just. He would not have been just had He not judged those reprobates.
God never errs in judgment. Human beings do.
We must answer these questions biblically: Is there anything too hard for God? Can He not work in (any) man, as the Potter works with clay?
You are forgetting that man has free will. God can lead humans and even form a persons character...if they are willing. If they are not...He lets them go their own way in evil.
Are the inhabitants of the earth too difficult, or are they "reputed as nothing"? Does He do "according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth", or is the bible a liar?
That's the problem with the Church today - they have a little bitty god.
Your problem is you don't believe what is written in God's Word...about God.
You are forgetting a ton of scripture that refutes that statement.
I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion. (Exu 33:19)
Know then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people. (Deu 9:6)
Yet they are Thy people, even Thine inheritance whom Thou hast brought out by Thy great power and Thine outstretched arm. (Deu 9:29)
Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. Yet I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the Lord your God. (Deu 29:4-6)
Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live. (Deu 30:6)
See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is I who puts to death and gives life. I have wounded, and it is I who heals; and there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deu 32:39)
Not one of the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. (Josh 21:45)
The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts. (1 Sam 2:6-7)
For the Lord will not abandon His people on account of His great name, because the Lord has been pleased to make you a people for Himself. (1 Sam 12:22)
Power and might are in Thy hand so that no one can stand against Thee. (2 Chr 20:6)
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom... (Ezr 1:1)
Thou art the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, and gave him the name Abraham. (Neh 9:7)
Now the leaders of the people lived in Jerusalem, but the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of ten to live in Jerusalem, the holy city, while nine-tenths remained in the other cities. And the people blessed all the men who volunteered to live in Jerusalem. [The Lord chooses; then you volunteer!] (Neh:11:1-2)
For if you [Esther] remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this? (Est 4:14)
And Job said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21)
But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does. For He performs what is appointed for me, and many such decrees are with Him. (Job 23:13-14)
I know that Thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted. (Job 42:2)
I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me [Ed., prophetically speaking of Jesus], “Thou art my Son. Today I have begotten Thee. Ask of Me [The Father] and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as Thy possession. [Notice this prophecy will also be fulfilled for the overcomers who are in the Son. See Rev. 2:27] (Psa 2:7-8)
Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psa 22:9-10)
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. (Psa 22:27-28)
Lord, Thou wilt establish peace for us, since Thou hast also performed for us all our works. (Isa 26:12)
I, the Lord, am its [the vineyard's] keeper; I water it every moment, lest anyone damage it; I guard it night and day. (Isa 27:3)
Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isa 40:5)
Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it? (Isa 43:13)
Because I have given waters in the wilderness and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My chosen people. The people whom I formed for Myself, will declare My praise. (Isa 43:20)
There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating calamity [Lit.,"ra", evil]. I am the Lord who does all these. (Isa 45:6-7)
It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host. (Isa 45:12)
Israel has been saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated to all eternity. (Isa 45:17)
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:22-23)
Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. (Isa 46:9-11)
I stopped at Isaiah, but there's approximately 75 more passages in the Old Testament alone that tells us God's will overrides (or in most cases - crushes) man's will.
Cruel? It was just. Just like the execution of Ted Bundy and other serial killers who murdered so many people. What they got was deserved.
Just like everyone else - Christians think everyone sins and is thus deserving of death & eternal punishment. Or maybe you disagree and think that people can choose not to sin, and just do good works and be free of the need to be saved?
But if you believe all people are sinful, God allowing people to die to further evolution is no different from God killing them in the flood. Those people are all sinners deserving of death. It's not cruel in either case, it's just.
If you don't feel that all people are sinful, or that people can choose not to sin, then it wouldn't be just for God to kill them. But in that case, you're also getting rid of the need for Jesus to save those people, which seems to be the whole point of Christianity in the first place.
Just like everyone else - Christians think everyone sins and is thus deserving of death & eternal punishment. Or maybe you disagree and think that people can choose not to sin, and just do good works and be free of the need to be saved?
But if you believe all people are sinful, God allowing people to die to further evolution is no different from God killing them in the flood. Those people are all sinners deserving of death. It's not cruel in either case, it's just.
If you don't feel that all people are sinful, or that people can choose not to sin, then it wouldn't be just for God to kill them. But in that case, you're also getting rid of the need for Jesus to save those people, which seems to be the whole point of Christianity in the first place.
True Christians believe that God made man corrupted, in order that the Hope would be realized. (Romans 8:20)
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