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Actually, you then go on to prove just how "sensical" it is, C_A!.... as in...
Easy with that kalashnikov, rifleman. I don't possess a bullet proof vest
I'm overwhelmed by this non-sensical crusade waged by one half of this forum population to prove its intellectual superiority, when, frankly, there is NONE.
Let's dissect my statements: No-one becomes an intellectual because they are atheist.
Atheism is not the door to intellectual height. Prove me I'm wrong. Show me a guy who becomes an atheist and because and ONLY because he is an atheist, he attains intellectual height, which is otherwise out of reach.
Is this where you guys are going? I'm hoping you just misread that assertion. Again, let's assume atheism as the initial parameter. And based wholly on this initial parameter, intellect builds over? Take the atheism out, the intellect gained collapses, right?
Most of the atheists are like theists from various walks of life.
Different walks of life, atheists exist. Again, different walks of life, theists exist. Is this nonsensical too?
Never use atheism to drive your claims of intellect, guys. The real world has different scenarios.
Many people after studying too much question God. Many people after studying too much still remain faithful.
Quit googling for stats and numbers. And also, what's with the links from British leftist agencies. The next time someone wants to quote the telegraph, please make sure I'm not in the audience.
Allow me to sit on the fence. I'll take intellectual people for who they are. And never farcically tie their intellect to their religious affiliations.
Let's take theism/atheism for what they actually are and leave the bloody "individual intellect" out of it. The latter is based wholly on personal capability. It's inborn, cannot be indoctrinated by theism/atheism.
You are an intelligent man, rifleman. Don't let your agenda determine your conclusions. I'm hoping you will agree to my theory of the non-common ground between religious affiliations and human intellect. If not, that's unfortunate.
Sophistry is Mystic's specialty, I'd say. That and his oft-stated conclusion that all others have suffered from a less enlightened existance and experiential base than he. He comments often that "I used to think like you, before I realized a large, better, more sophisticated reality..." or words to that effect. As he did here, in effect.
You are so fond of scientific citation . . . perhaps you will cite these instances when I said what you assert that I said, rifleman. Your characterization of my "words to that effect" is pure sophistry . . . since I said "until my experience in meditation that convinced ME that there is a God consciousness." That means it settled the atheist/theist question for ME.
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How sad for all of us lesser-lings! How WILL we make it, being so ill-equipped to think things through to the ultimate truth of "god", one wonders....
You have such log on your shoulder, rifleman . . . it is a wonder you can function at all. The attributions that you make about others ALWAYS reveal more about what YOU are like . . . because those things that characterize us are the most believable about others. Think about that for a while before you continue implying motivations to my writings.
No-one becomes an intellectual because they are atheist.
Certainly, but is any atheist claiming that? I certainly don't, and rifleman doesn't appear to either. (The reverse is debatable, though, as rifleman attempted. But I doubt we could stay unbiased on such a question so the debate would probably be fruitless.)
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Originally Posted by C_A
Most of the atheists are like theists from various walks of life.
As studies indicate, there is a statistical difference between atheism and theism regarding education level, so that's not quite true.
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Originally Posted by C_A
Quit googling for stats and numbers.
What's wrong with trying to support an opinion with facts?
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Originally Posted by C_A
And also, what's with the links from British leftist agencies. The next time someone wants to quote the telegraph, please make sure I'm not in the audience.
I'm not familiar with English agencies. Which link was that? It's not like there was only one.
Certainly, but is any atheist claiming that? I certainly don't, and rifleman doesn't appear to either. (The reverse is debatable, though, as rifleman attempted. But I doubt we could stay unbiased on such a question so the debate would probably be fruitless.)
As studies indicate, there is a statistical difference between atheism and theism regarding education level, so that's not quite true.
What's wrong with trying to support an opinion with facts?
I'm not familiar with English agencies. Which link was that? It's not like there was only one.
Ok Roxo, may I request you to read the title of this thread? And how some posters vehemently root for atheism as the stepping stone to human intellect?
I think we all agree that heightened research among some of the scientific elite "can" lead to atheism, when it can be compelling to question anything God-like.
But what is being implied here is that it's the atheism which powers their intellect. This is my bone of contention and I still am very much interested in having this quantitatively/qualitatively proved.
And I can tell where those stats come from. The apparent initial parameter of those stats readily assumes that the lone two entities on the world map are the united states of america and great britain.
I'm saying, let's do a census. Let's go to every part of the planet. Let's bring in numbers and then let's decide atheists are more intellectual than theists. Until then, I don't buy these stats.
You're right on one thing, though. This "is" a fruitless debate.
Last edited by Currency Pair Crocodile; 04-08-2009 at 02:40 PM..
I know a man named Randy, probably the smartest person I've met, who was a professor at a college. He was a teacher and a marine also, and he can do math in his head really fast. Math I never knew of, it takes him practically no time to know the answer to.
So Randy in your opinion is clever then?
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He also mentioned the word evolution before and sounded like he was in favor of the word, but I forgot why he mentioned it.
How dumb is this? you are trying as most creationists do to pose a leading question w/o any relevance or supporting facts. IOW drivel.
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Anyway, he told me once that him and his wife, before going to bed, they always do certain things, like watch TV, read, and then he said they pray. He obviously meant that they believe in God and therefore pray.
..he and his wife.. grammar laddie, your ignorance is showing.
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Why do people think atheists are more intelligent?
On what of the aforementioned has any of this to do with this assertion?
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Or people who are educated are less likely to believe in God?
Or this?
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There's people out there who are very intelligent and educated and still believe in God, I've seen it myself.
Thus everything you see and hear must be the truth then.
This is the type of arguments the creationist make and then you try and start off a discussion by shooting yourself in the foot. It is sad that stupidity is so easily demonstrated and in this you excel.
Talk of building strawmen? But I am guessing that this will go over your head as you would not recognize a strawman.
Ok Roxo, may I request you to read the title of this thread?
From the OP:
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Why do people think atheists are more intelligent? Or people who are educated are less likely to believe in God? There's people out there who are very intelligent and educated and still believe in God, I've seen it myself.
I, along with (I believe) rifleman and others, do not claim that people "become intellectual because they are atheists". I've been re-reading the thread and you're right, NJDevil and Visvaldis did a bit of that (and Boxcar Overkill, but he did support it with statistics).
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Originally Posted by C_A
But what is being implied here is that it's the atheism which powers their intellect. This is my bone of contention and I still am very much interested in having this quantitatively/qualitatively proved.
We're entering the dangerous area of correlation versus causation. Various studies indicates a correlation between education level (as well as IQ) and atheism. But that's just that: a correlation. It's much harder to demonstrate that atheism causes high intellect, or that high intellect causes atheism (or that they are both caused by a third factor, like wealth).
Maybe we should just stick with the facts and not try to make up theories (that goes for both sides!). Of course, we can still discuss the truth of those facts, as you did below. I'll try to look for what statistics are available on the matter and what they are worth. (But not now. It's 23:13 down here )
Edit : SeekerSA, you're doing little to improve the thread...
My contention was never that people "become intellectual because they are atheists". I thought that was just Colussus Antonis's straw man. He proudly crows that people don't become intellectuals just because they are atheists, knowing that few if any claimed that the causation was in that direction. Most don't speak of causation at all. The OP question was one of descriptive statistics.
The OP question, which could be restated as "in general, are atheist smarter than theist", is conclusively proven by dozens of studies that show statistically significant differences between theist and atheist in terms the IQ, education level, grades in school, etc. Just about any indicis one may create to capture the concept of "smart", if studied, shows that atheist are, on average, smarter than theist. This doesn't require faith, or intuition. Just look at the mountains of evidence, and the answer is very clear.
But here we once again see the difference between theist and atheist. How do you prove something is true? Atheist are more likely to rely on emperical and objective evidence. Theist are more likely to force their gut-answer through, despite clear emperical and objective evidence to the contrary. After all, the touchstone of religion is faith. It doesn't take faith to believe something that all the available evidence supports. That's just logic. Faith is believing something despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
So, just like in the debates over evolution today, or the debate of whether the earth is the center of the universe from hundreds of years ago, what we see in this thread are theist relying on faith, while atheist are relying on objective emperical evidence. Because the objective evidence shows atheist are, on average, smarter than theist.
So, just like in the debates over evolution today, or the debate of whether the earth is the center of the universe from hundreds of years ago, what we see in this thread are theist relying on faith, while atheist are relying on objective emperical evidence. Because the objective evidence shows atheist are, on average, smarter than theist.
hi Boxcar , i'm theist muslim and i'm actually open minded for objective emperical evidence , it dosn't contradict my faith at all
the only difference is that i relying on faith regarding to everything not proofed yet by objective emperical envidences
I think that it's because American-Christianity has been overtaken by a bonehead, closed-minded, "every other religion is wrong", illogical and hypocritical attitude.
The intolerance for other religions, and lack of love for other religions just not show intelligence, love or wisdom.
It's too bad. Christianity does not have to be this way. But thats where it's at in the US these days.
I've been re-reading the thread and you're right, NJDevil and Visvaldis did a bit of that (and Boxcar Overkill, but he did support it with statistics).
Thank you, Roxo! Finally, a second person in this thread talks some much needed sense. After me, of course
Time to coin a new term - googlintellacktual
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