Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
With reference to my other thread about same sex marriages, there are a lot of people who feel very strongly about it.
I think it is really interesting how certain discussions have highlighted the opinions and beliefs held by certain people. Assuming there is a God which is running the show, there are obviously a number of assumptions which people use to base their faith on. Holding onto faith and beliefs is a big deal for many people so they are going to defend them vigorously. For some of these people it is a matter of everlasting life and death. But..what does it matter to us as individuals if someone else is breaking those belief rules?
1) For Christians, The Bible is the go-to authority on what God wants us to do and how to behave.
However, I dont understand how a Creator (as a single entity) could be so involved with our life on a daily basis that it has an opinion on such (relatively in the scheme-of-things) small and minor events. Do folks REALLY believe that every little action by one person in 6 or 7 billion world population is judged and potentially punished by a God which is examining every little detail of our individual lives?
2) It has been reported by some that the Bible was written at least 50 years after the person called Jesus was on Earth.
Probably, we are unable to remember in detail (let alone word-for-word) what our nearest and dearest said to us a few weeks after they have said it to us. How then can the actual words of Jesus be remembered after 50 years has passed. It seems unlikely then, that the words described in the Bible are the words uttered by Jesus and so must be made up by the human writers of the gospels. As a result, can we really take what is written in the Bible as the words of Jesus and base our beliefs and faith on it? In that thread, many people are doing just that.
3) Christianity and Religions preach peace and goodwill (that goodwill extends to LGBT folks)
Unfortunately, only if you are in the group because if not, then historically, you deserve to die if you dont belong. This seems rather hypocritical. Follow our rules to become good people, but kill those who dont follow the rules.
I can quite understand how Christianity is a way of life and sets out a way of living correctly, but I can also understand how there are other moral guidelines just as good given to us by other belief systems. It is up to us which one or none we adopt and follow.
If anyone is looking for a moral compass by which to live their life, I dont think they need proof or confirmation of how good that moral set of rules is - they should know that within themselves. Do we really need an example which is larger-than-life and which no-one really knows for certain whether the reported good deeds or actions are true or just made-up stories.
I can also understand how people need to belong to a group. Christianity is a good group to belong to, but there are also other groups which look after their members, etc. In the old days, it was far more important to belong to a group than it is nowadays, a tribe, a family, a clan all gave protection from attacks.
With reference to my other thread about same sex marriages, there are a lot of people who feel very strongly about it.
I think it is really interesting how certain discussions have highlighted the opinions and beliefs held by certain people. Assuming there is a God which is running the show, there are obviously a number of assumptions which people use to base their faith on. Holding onto faith and beliefs is a big deal for many people so they are going to defend them vigorously. For some of these people it is a matter of everlasting life and death. But..what does it matter to us as individuals if someone else is breaking those belief rules?
1) For Christians, The Bible is the go-to authority on what God wants us to do and how to behave.
However, I dont understand how a Creator (as a single entity) could be so involved with our life on a daily basis that it has an opinion on such (relatively in the scheme-of-things) small and minor events. Do folks REALLY believe that every little action by one person in 6 or 7 billion world population is judged and potentially punished by a God which is examining every little detail of our individual lives?
2) It has been reported by some that the Bible was written at least 50 years after the person called Jesus was on Earth.
Probably, we are unable to remember in detail (let alone word-for-word) what our nearest and dearest said to us a few weeks after they have said it to us. How then can the actual words of Jesus be remembered after 50 years has passed. It seems unlikely then, that the words described in the Bible are the words uttered by Jesus and so must be made up by the human writers of the gospels. As a result, can we really take what is written in the Bible as the words of Jesus and base our beliefs and faith on it? In that thread, many people are doing just that.
3) Christianity and Religions preach peace and goodwill (that goodwill extends to LGBT folks)
Unfortunately, only if you are in the group because if not, then historically, you deserve to die if you dont belong. This seems rather hypocritical. Follow our rules to become good people, but kill those who dont follow the rules.
I can quite understand how Christianity is a way of life and sets out a way of living correctly, but I can also understand how there are other moral guidelines just as good given to us by other belief systems. It is up to us which one or none we adopt and follow.
If anyone is looking for a moral compass by which to live their life, I dont think they need proof or confirmation of how good that moral set of rules is - they should know that within themselves. Do we really need an example which is larger-than-life and which no-one really knows for certain whether the reported good deeds or actions are true or just made-up stories.
I can also understand how people need to belong to a group. Christianity is a good group to belong to, but there are also other groups which look after their members, etc. In the old days, it was far more important to belong to a group than it is nowadays, a tribe, a family, a clan all gave protection from attacks.
Nicely written...a very good post.
In regard to #1...yes, I have thought about that, as well...even as a very young man was told I had to confess masturbation to a priest. So let's see, god cares a great deal if I masturbate, but allows hundreds of children a day to die of starvation and disease in Africa. Hmmmm. That just didn't make sense to me at all, not to mention all the other means of great suffering throughout the world. Seems like god should be focusing on things far more significant than me masturbating.
In regard to #2...we have the same (if not bigger) problem in Buddhism. Buddhist scriptures were not written down for perhaps 300 years after the death of Buddha. I think that may be one of the reasons that (at least in Thervada Buddhism) we try to look more at the Precepts as guidance and not commandments, and we see our role as thinking about sexual liasisons in regard to the principle in medicine...do no harm...but think carefully about what might cause harm.
I regard to #3...yes, a christian trait that seems very unchristian...at least to me.
I agree...people should adopt a moral compass (and we all know many do not), and one's moral compass doesn't need to be the same as someone else's. That is why I often point out to some posters here that what they are posting means virtually nothing to a non-christian, just as my belief-system (Buddhism) probably means virtually nothing to them.
Since you haven't had a response....
1) God can do anything. He is omnipotent. He knows how many hairs you have on your head. So it stands to reason he could be consulted on anything including what kind of candy bar you should get out of a vending machine without causing him any consternation.
2) This one is easy. God inspired the writers of the Bible to write down the words of Jesus in an accurate manner.
3) While the killing of all heathens seems to be an overriding theme in the OT. That seems to have been out of style by the time the Romans took over everything and wanted their captive nations to behave. The Hellenistic period preceding the Roman empire seemed to begin the trend toward social reform. It was in this tradition that Jesus' message tended to take Judaism and attempt to express it in a different manner. One in which the focus was less nationalistic and more focused on interpersonal and social relationships between people and groups.
As for the group thing at the end. Yes, the need for groups has diminished somewhat as civilizations have evolved although I think it is somewhat hard wired that we group ourselves to some degree.
Since you haven't had a response....
1) God can do anything. He is omnipotent. He knows how many hairs you have on your head. So it stands to reason he could be consulted on anything including what kind of candy bar you should get out of a vending machine without causing him any consternation.
2) This one is easy. God inspired the writers of the Bible to write down the words of Jesus in an accurate manner.
3) While the killing of all heathens seems to be an overriding theme in the OT. That seems to have been out of style by the time the Romans took over everything and wanted their captive nations to behave. The Hellenistic period preceding the Roman empire seemed to begin the trend toward social reform. It was in this tradition that Jesus' message tended to take Judaism and attempt to express it in a different manner. One in which the focus was less nationalistic and more focused on interpersonal and social relationships between people and groups.
As for the group thing at the end. Yes, the need for groups has diminished somewhat as civilizations have evolved although I think it is somewhat hard wired that we group ourselves to some degree.
Well, if god knows or cares how many hairs I have on my head...and I'm bald...but lets millions of people suffer on a daily basis...then that's a pretty worthless god.
1) For Christians, The Bible is the go-to authority on what God wants us to do and how to behave.
However, I dont understand how a Creator (as a single entity) could be so involved with our life on a daily basis that it has an opinion on such (relatively in the scheme-of-things) small and minor events. Do folks REALLY believe that every little action by one person in 6 or 7 billion world population is judged and potentially punished by a God which is examining every little detail of our individual lives?
Of course it's absurd ... but many Christian groups will just say it's magic ... er, that god is all powerful and can do anything he wants, no matter how ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20
2) It has been reported by some that the Bible was written at least 50 years after the person called Jesus was on Earth.
Probably, we are unable to remember in detail (let alone word-for-word) what our nearest and dearest said to us a few weeks after they have said it to us. How then can the actual words of Jesus be remembered after 50 years has passed. It seems unlikely then, that the words described in the Bible are the words uttered by Jesus and so must be made up by the human writers of the gospels. As a result, can we really take what is written in the Bible as the words of Jesus and base our beliefs and faith on it? In that thread, many people are doing just that.
The early Pauline letters are generally dated to about 35+ years after the crucifixion, but the gospels themselves are 30+ years after that. In the case of John, and the Revelation, add another 20 years or so.
However ... some decent arguments can be made for even later datings. And we have no appreciable manuscript fragments older than about AD 200-ish (I'm being charitable here), so the datings mentioned above are inferred from internal evidence, writing style and other tea leaves ... by people mostly beholden to vested interests for their income. You tell me how rock solid certain we can be of those dates.
1) For Christians, The Bible is the go-to authority on what God wants us to do and how to behave.
However, I dont understand how a Creator (as a single entity) could be so involved with our life on a daily basis that it has an opinion on such (relatively in the scheme-of-things) small and minor events. Do folks REALLY believe that every little action by one person in 6 or 7 billion world population is judged and potentially punished by a God which is examining every little detail of our individual lives?
I believe that reality is vastly different than any human conception. I believe that human conceptions as to how God could be omnipresent and omniscient are doomed to failure. I believe that God is omnipresent and omniscient at a level of minutiae we cannot even comprehend. When the Bible says the hairs on our head are numbered and that not a sparrow falls from the sky without God's knowledge, I believe this is literally true and, in fact, an understatement. I believe this largely on the basis of my own experience. It is also a consistent message from many of the most credible Near Death Experiences - i.e., that many of the seemingly trivial events of our lives are of cosmic significance while many of the seemingly huge triumphs and tragedies are not.
Quote:
2) It has been reported by some that the Bible was written at least 50 years after the person called Jesus was on Earth. Probably, we are unable to remember in detail (let alone word-for-word) what our nearest and dearest said to us a few weeks after they have said it to us. How then can the actual words of Jesus be remembered after 50 years has passed. It seems unlikely then, that the words described in the Bible are the words uttered by Jesus and so must be made up by the human writers of the gospels. As a result, can we really take what is written in the Bible as the words of Jesus and base our beliefs and faith on it? In that thread, many people are doing just that.
What you say is simply not true. Paul was dead less than 50 years after Jesus. Most of his letters are much earlier. More to the point, there was a rich oral tradition that began immediately after the death of Jesus, and anthropological studies have shown that oral traditions can be astoundingly accurate. Likewise, scholars believe that lost compositions of Jesus' sayings, such as the famous Q (but not only Q), date to the very early days. Scholar Richard Bauckham, for one, has written extensively on the extent to which the Gospels reflect eyewitness testimony and the early oral tradition. The late scholar Larry Hurtado wrote extensively about how soon after the Crucifixion the early Christians began to worship Jesus as divine. The reality is, the New Testament almost stands alone among ancient documents as a reliable record of the events it describes. I have a high level of confidence the NT is a reliable record of Jesus' ministry regardless of whether every detail is literally correct.
Quote:
3) Christianity and Religions preach peace and goodwill (that goodwill extends to LGBT folks)
Unfortunately, only if you are in the group because if not, then historically, you deserve to die if you dont belong. This seems rather hypocritical. Follow our rules to become good people, but kill those who dont follow the rules.
You seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity. A person is either saved or not. It's not a matter of "belonging" or being "in the group" but of being saved. There is no doctrine in Christianity to "kill those who don't follow the rules." There is no doctrine to "follow our rules to be good people." The Gospel message is one of salvation, not of being good or becoming good. The consequences of not being saved have been decreed by God. The message of Christianity is the Gospel, not peace and goodwill.
Quote:
I can quite understand how Christianity is a way of life and sets out a way of living correctly, but I can also understand how there are other moral guidelines just as good given to us by other belief systems. It is up to us which one or none we adopt and follow.
The critical issue is Truth. If Christianity is True, substantially identical moral codes of other belief systems have not been decreed by God and thus are not "just as good." Christianity is not a "way of life" or "living correctly." The sole issues are whether Christianity is True and whether one is saved. Christian morality is for Christians. If an atheist or Buddhist chooses to use the Bible and Jesus' teachings as his model, this is of utterly no consequence to Christianity (or, Christians believe, to God).
Quote:
If anyone is looking for a moral compass by which to live their life, I dont think they need proof or confirmation of how good that moral set of rules is - they should know that within themselves. Do we really need an example which is larger-than-life and which no-one really knows for certain whether the reported good deeds or actions are true or just made-up stories.
You are completely missing the point. If Christianity is True, Christian morality has been decreed by God. If Christianity is True, there is no other morality - merely human opinion. Your statements make sense only if Christianity is not True, which is something each individual must decide for himself or herself. (The Bible does say that to some extent God's law is written in the hearts or consciences of all humans, but the purpose of this is to make each of us understand how far short we fall and why we need God's forgiveness through Christ.)
Quote:
I can also understand how people need to belong to a group. Christianity is a good group to belong to, but there are also other groups which look after their members, etc. In the old days, it was far more important to belong to a group than it is nowadays, a tribe, a family, a clan all gave protection from attacks.
I belong to the body of Christ but no earthly group - not even a church. Again: If Christianity is True, being a Christian is not merely belonging to one group among many possible alternatives. It is a matter of being saved and being part of the body of Christ. If Christianity is True, no other group can offer eternal salvation to its members.
The issues simply aren't the ones you raise. The issues are (1) whether Christianity is True and, if so (2) whether one is saved. The Bible repeatedly says the Gospel is foolishness to the unsaved. Until one is convicted to turn to God through Christ, it will remain a puzzle and seem foolish.
I believe that reality is vastly different than any human conception. I believe that human conceptions as to how God could be omnipresent and omniscient are doomed to failure. I believe that God is omnipresent and omniscient at a level of minutiae we cannot even comprehend. When the Bible says the hairs on our head are numbered and that not a sparrow falls from the sky without God's knowledge, I believe this is literally true and, in fact, an understatement. I believe this largely on the basis of my own experience. It is also a consistent message from many of the most credible Near Death Experiences - i.e., that many of the seemingly trivial events of our lives are of cosmic significance while many of the seemingly huge triumphs and tragedies are not.
What you say is simply not true. Paul was dead less than 50 years after Jesus. Most of his letters are much earlier. More to the point, there was a rich oral tradition that began immediately after the death of Jesus, and anthropological studies have shown that oral traditions can be astoundingly accurate. Likewise, scholars believe that lost compositions of Jesus' sayings, such as the famous Q (but not only Q), date to the very early days. Scholar Richard Bauckham, for one, has written extensively on the extent to which the Gospels reflect eyewitness testimony and the early oral tradition. The late scholar Larry Hurtado wrote extensively about how soon after the Crucifixion the early Christians began to worship Jesus as divine. The reality is, the New Testament almost stands alone among ancient documents as a reliable record of the events it describes. I have a high level of confidence the NT is a reliable record of Jesus' ministry regardless of whether every detail is literally correct.
You seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity. A person is either saved or not. It's not a matter of "belonging" or being "in the group" but of being saved. There is no doctrine in Christianity to "kill those who don't follow the rules." There is no doctrine to "follow our rules to be good people." The Gospel message is one of salvation, not of being good or becoming good. The consequences of not being saved have been decreed by God. The message of Christianity is the Gospel, not peace and goodwill.
The critical issue is Truth. If Christianity is True, substantially identical moral codes of other belief systems have not been decreed by God and thus are not "just as good." Christianity is not a "way of life" or "living correctly." The sole issues are whether Christianity is True and whether one is saved. Christian morality is for Christians. If an atheist or Buddhist chooses to use the Bible and Jesus' teachings as his model, this is of utterly no consequence to Christianity (or, Christians believe, to God).
You are completely missing the point.If Christianity is True, Christian morality has been decreed by God. If Christianity is True, there is no other morality - merely human opinion. Your statements make sense only if Christianity is not True, which is something each individual must decide for himself or herself. (The Bible does say that to some extent God's law is written in the hearts or consciences of all humans, but the purpose of this is to make each of us understand how far short we fall and why we need God's forgiveness through Christ.)
I belong to the body of Christ but no earthly group - not even a church. Again: If Christianity is True, being a Christian is not merely belonging to one group among many possible alternatives. It is a matter of being saved and being part of the body of Christ. If Christianity is True, no other group can offer eternal salvation to its members.
The issues simply aren't the ones you raise. The issues are (1) whether Christianity is True and, if so (2) whether one is saved. The Bible repeatedly says the Gospel is foolishness to the unsaved. Until one is convicted to turn to God through Christ, it will remain a puzzle and seem foolish.
It seems to me that your first paragraph contradicts itself.
"A rich oral tradition...". Ever play the parlor game "Chinese whispers"?
"You seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity: Everyone doesn't have to believe what you believe. Toss out the ego.
Sorry, in regard to "If christianity is true"...it's not.
Once again, you are missing the point -- the point that not everyone sees things as you do. And no particular expert at christianity and other world religions.
Who gave you the right to decide what the issues are? Again, toss away that christian ego.
It seems to me that your first paragraph contradicts itself.
"A rich oral tradition...". Ever play the parlor game "Chinese whispers"?
"You seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity: Everyone doesn't have to believe what you believe. Toss out the ego.
Sorry, in regard to "If christianity is true"...it's not.
Once again, you are missing the point -- the point that not everyone sees things as you do. And no particular expert at christianity and other world religions.
Who gave you the right to decide what the issues are? Again, toss away that christian ego.
Think in context though. During that time period less than 2% of the population could read/write.
Oral was their way of communication. We have lost that ability to memorize and recant vast amounts of information today. Their memories must have been quite good seeing they could not read or write.
Think in context though. During that time period less than 2% of the population could read/write.
Oral was their way of communication. We have lost that ability to memorize and recant vast amounts of information today. Their memories must have been quite good seeing they could not read or write.
I don't care about the context of the time. That's not my issue. I'm living in 2023. We have NO way of judging their memories. Or can you show me some scientific research about the memory abilities of Israelites 2,023 years ago? You believe what you want, but it's just what you believe.
It seems to me that your first paragraph contradicts itself.
Well, no, it doesn't contradict itself, nor do you attempt to explain why it "seems" that way to you.
As many scientists are beginning to speculate, I suspect our reality is akin to a virtual or idealistic one. I don't speculate as to exactly what that may look like or how it may work from God's perspective. My studies - and for that matter - my experiences suggest to me that God being omniscient and omnipresent at literally a quantum level is not the least bit far-fetched. Those who envision a fundamentally materialistic universe with God as an external observer would obviously have problems with the notions of omniscience and omnipresence. I believe the materialistic paradigm is not merely flawed but 180 degrees from the truth.
Quote:
"A rich oral tradition...". Ever play the parlor game "Chinese whispers"?
You pretty clearly are speaking from a position of ignorance on this subject. Modern anthropological studies have demonstrated that societies that rely on oral transmission can be fantastically accurate. They rely on very specific techniques to ensure that accuracy is preserved, even across generations. The biblical pericopes fit the pattern exactly and reflect that they arose out of such an oral tradition, as scholars know they did.
Quote:
"You seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity: Everyone doesn't have to believe what you believe. Toss out the ego.
My statement has precisely nothing to do with my ego or what the OP believes or should believe. His statements simply reflect a lack of understanding of what Christianity is and teaches. It's irrelevant to me what the OP believes. If I made a series of statements about aviation hat reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the subject, I wouldn't think an experienced pilot who pointed this out was operating from a basis of ego or telling me what to believe.
Quote:
Sorry, in regard to "If christianity is true"...it's not.
This statement is just silly. Statements such as this add precisely nothing to any discussion. Talk about operating from a position of ego ...
Quote:
Once again, you are missing the point -- the point that not everyone sees things as you do. And no particular expert at christianity and other world religions.
You think the OP's point was that not everyone sees things as Christians do? Not exactly breaking news if that was his point. His post is directed specifically at Christianity and his disagreements with the Christian point of view. I pointed out that he is fundamentally misguided as to what Christians believe and why. I further pointed out that virtually all of his statements are false if Christianity is True - as Christians believe it is, and as it may well be.
Quote:
Who gave you the right to decide what the issues are? Again, toss away that christian ego.
Insofar as belief systems are concerned, Truth is the central issue for any rational individual. Everything else flows from what we have concluded is True. When it comes to metaphysical belief systems, including atheism, we cannot objectively know the Truth. We can only reach a level of conviction. I pointed out that everything the OP says is incorrect if Christianity is True, as Christians believe it is. He is certainly welcome to his own understanding of Truth - but if he is going to inaccurately describe what Christians believe and why, he is going to get called on it when Christians respond.
The issue for a Christian is indeed whether an individual is saved. It is not, as the OP erroneously suggested, whether non-Christians should adopt Christian morality, follow Christian rules, be good people or be killed. His post, and frankly your response, is just a mishmash of muddled thinking.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
