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You have it in your head that 'soul' is something other than the definition that is applied to it. I've given the definition of the word as per its Hebrew meaning from Strong's Bible Concordance. I wouldn't have known what 'soul' meant had I not looked up the word. The Hebrew meaning of the word is 'breath'. And that 'breath', we are told, returns to God when a person dies. Yes, this is basically 'child talk' and not 'rocket science' that we're given in scripture, but we get the gist. We're told in genesis that God breathed 'life' into Adam, and he became a living soul. The reversal of this act appears to be what occurs at death. Prior to this act Adam didn't exist. Similarly, so too when a person dies.
I'm not sure why this biblical scenario would be problematic for you and most professed Christians. At the resurrection the righteous dead will be raised 'incorruptible'. This is still a WIN/WIN situation for 'the believer'. Why is it SO important for Christians to get INSTANT gratification at death? It actually sounds very 'worldly'. Also, what IS the advantage for 'souls' or 'breaths' () of an individual waiting around in heaven for what could be thousands of years before being reunited to 'the body' on Resurrection Day? Moreover, if they are already in heaven, then why the need for a resurrection at all? It makes no sense. Surely, even spiritual matters require SOME kind of logic behind them.
Fortunately, the Bible scenario that has the deceased lying patiently in their graves' awaiting resurrection is the one that we are given. This DOES make sense ...kind of. No one receives special treatment since all are raised at the same time. They, along with the living 'righteous' receive 'their reward' at the same time. No one jumps the gun. It all seems to have been worked out quite well in advance as one would it expect it to have been. But then, 'mainstream Christianity' (and the influence of Catholicism) came along and fouled things up.
Okay, I can't continue going around in circles on this topic. Your mind is set.
I don't think that I've said that 'I agree' with scripture on this topic or on any scriptural topic. I'm merely quoting scripture and, if need be, I might say that it makes sense to me or as much sense as can be made regarding 'the supernatural'. I don't know if anything that we may debate here pertaining to scripture can be regarded as 'the truth'. When someone asks a religious question, such as that of the OP in this case, I 'assume' that the Bible will offer the answer. I personally don't know the answer. As I keep saying, I haven't experienced death and so I have to go to a source that may offer up an answer to the OP's question. And that's what I've done. All of this extra padding that has been applied to scripture from the minds of religious leaders doesn't interest me since it doesn't tally with the words from what is regarded as a 'Holy Book'. "I" don't know if the Bible IS 'divine' but it's still the source I turn to for answers to religious questions.
I am NOT giving 'my' viewpoint! I'm simply giving scripture. I may say that I agree with scripture - rather than the other way around - but 'scripture' is my source. And if Paul, Peter, et al, appear to contradict what the scripture has already established then, 1. they have been misunderstood by the reader, or, 2. they are wrong. I doubt that it's the latter.
Yes, I have never denied that the scripture DOES tell us that there is a separation of the soul (breath) and the body at death. In fact, I have been stating this since post one. The body DOES die, and the 'soul' (the life-giving element) DOES separate from the body and returns to God. However, the 'soul' is not a living entity in and of itself. The 'soul' GIVES life to the body which is now in a dormant state.
Regardless, I AM using the Bible as my source for this thread topic whether I believe it or not or as to whether it's true or not.
No, it does not.
Correct! 'Soul sleep' is YOUR term, NOT the Bible's and NOT mine!
This is not even a case of 'agreeing to disagree'. You are adding TO scripture as well as adding 'soul' to the word 'sleep' simply to make the term sound sinister. The body 'sleeps' ...the 'soul' returns to God. The term 'soul sleep' doesn't make sense and it's a term that I wouldn't think to use myself BECAUSE it doesn't make sense.
The Bible doesn't use the term 'soul sleep' because it doesn't teach it. You do however even though you don't understand that you teach it. Once again, the term 'soul sleep' is the term used to describe your non-biblical idea. I didn't make it up. It's the idea that the soul sleeps, or ceases to exist, depending on the particular belief of the person holding the view. As you've been told, the word 'soul', like most words has a range of meaning. It can refer to the complete person and it can refer to just the immaterial inner essence of the person. In the Bible the term 'sleep' when referring to death only to the body and says nothing about the state of the soul after physical death has occurred. The soul goes to its afterlife destination whether heaven or sheol/hades.
You contradict yourself by saying that the soul is the complete person (post 37) while saying that the body is in the grave. The complete person is body, soul, and spirit. Since the body is in the grave while the soul is in heaven then the complete person cannot be in heaven. But the soul in the sense of being the immaterial inner part of man, that part that contains the intellect and emotions, etc., is in heaven. Again, while the word 'soul' can refer to the complete person, depending on the context, it can also refer to just the inner immaterial part of man. But you believe that the soul is nothing more than the breath and so when a person dies he ceases to exist until the resurrection. Thus the term 'soul sleep.' You deny that a person goes to heaven when he dies but only his 'breath' does. And this is not what the Bible teaches.
Again, the Bible teaches that a person does go to heaven. Revelation chapters 6 and 7 clearly refer to people in heaven but you refuse to acknowledge what it says as valid. Peter spoke of departing from his body at his soon coming death. When he said ''...as long as I am in this earthly dwelling...'' he was saying that his inner essence . . . his ''I'' was in his body, but that that part of him which gives him his personhood would be laying aside his body and departing, meaning that he would be going somewhere after leaving his body behind. Paul spoke of being absent from the body and at home with the Lord. So yes, the Bible teaches that after death a person's soul and spirit does go into the presence of the Lord who is in heaven. You deny all of this because of your presuppositions.
You are apparently incapable of being objective about what the Bible actually says about the matter, preferring to cherry pick only those verses which you think support your belief.
I'm done here because I don't have the patience to keep arguing about it.
Can someone explain the logic behind the belief that one immediately goes to heaven or hell at death only to come back to earth to be reunited with their body at the time of Jesus' Second Coming? Based on this belief, the deceased person could have been in heaven (or mainstream Christianity's version of hell) for eons before they are reunited with their body, a body that remains in the place where it was long-before buried.
What IS the point in a resurrection AT ALL if the recipients of the reward of eternal bliss in heaven or (<sigh>) eternal suffering in hell are already experiencing this form of after-life?
Conversely, what is the logic behind the belief that one 'rests' in the grave until the resurrection? "I" CAN explain the logic behind the belief that one goes to the grave at death where they await the resurrection. It makes MUCH MORE SENSE! Moreover, I can explain - and HAVE explained - simply by having quoted the Bible on this topic. I have given NO personal opinions, just a nod of agreement in that the Bible DOES explain quite nicely the state of the dead as asked by the OP. There is NO biblical merit in the belief that the dead go immediately to heaven (or to some other place) at death. They simply 'rest'. Totally scriptural!
Moreover, HELL is none other than 'the grave'!
Here are just a few scriptures that I challenge anyone to contest:
Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
ECCLESIASTES 12:7 KJV "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Thessalonians 4:16 - “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Matthew 27:52-53 - The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
John 5:29 - And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
1 Corinthians 15:20 - But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Acts 7:60 - And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John 11:11 - After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”
John 6:54 - Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Daniel 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
How is it possible to ignore all of the above passages of scripture (and there ARE many more) that give a description of the present state of the dead and of the coming resurrection? More to the point, why do so many Christians go out of their way to cast aspersions on those who present these scriptures in response to the question: Immediately after death ...sleep or heaven? Why do they feel so threatened? Why do they feel the need to militantly uphold an erroneous belief that is CLEARLY contrary to scripture?
I started this thread and just realized when I was at church today that the nice and creed answers my question
“We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come”
That means, at least to me, that the dead are “sleeping” until their resurrection.
Yes, I have always interpreted it that way as well.
Just like when all the dead came out of their graves and walked around town , after Jesus Christ died.
I started this thread and just realized when I was at church today that the nice and creed answers my question
“We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come”
That means, at least to me, that the dead are “sleeping” until their resurrection.
Yes, but you COULD just as well have gone to your Bible just as I did to find this out. Why didn't you do that?
The response to the question that you asked in the OP is often met with a "What does it matter whether the dead rest in their graves or they immediately fly off to heaven or hell? Who cares? What a time waster!"
For me it's not a time waster. For me it's a question of whether or not the teaching of biblical concepts by mainstream Christianity comes down to no more than a 'who cares what we're taught' type of ideology. I would prefer be given the truth by my church rather than to blindly go along with a popularly accepted piece of fiction. This is a worthy and worthwhile topic and is deserving of a worthy and worthwhile response.
That said, the biblical doctrine of the dead 'sleeping' in their graves - even after scripture after scripture is presented to show this - will still be met with militant objection by those who have been indoctrinated with the 'immediate heaven, immediate hell' teaching of their particular denomination. It is SO true that old habits - and old beliefs - die hard.
Yes, I have always interpreted it that way as well.
Just like when all the dead came out of their graves and walked around town , after Jesus Christ died.
I find at Matthew 27:51-53 it is about exposed 'raised up' corpses and Not resurrection.
No one was resurrected before Jesus. Jesus was the first - 1st Corinthians chapter 15
Jesus was Not resurrected the day Jesus died. Jesus went to the grave the day he died - Acts 2:27
So, at Matthew 27:53 it was living people who came out of the tombs/ came out of the cemetery /who because visible.
I started this thread and just realized when I was at church today that the nicene creed answers my question
“We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come”
That means, at least to me, that the dead are “sleeping” until their resurrection.
Yes,' life to come ' because Resurrection Day (Jesus' Millennium-Long Day) is future - Acts 24:15; John 6:40,44
Jesus taught from the OT and both teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
That said, the biblical doctrine of the dead 'sleeping' in their graves - even after scripture after scripture is presented to show this - will still be met with militant objection by those who have been indoctrinated with the 'immediate heaven, immediate hell' teaching of their particular denomination. It is SO true that old habits - and old beliefs - die hard.
Yes, it is very hard to erase old teachings because often they have been so very-deeply embedded into people's minds by their clergy.
An inquiring mind wants to know. So, one needs to line up or compare what Jesus taught with traditional teachings.
Especially when the un-faithful Jews began mixing with Greek philosophy the idea of the dead being alive became popular.
That said, the biblical doctrine of the dead 'sleeping' in their graves - even after scripture after scripture is presented to show this - will still be met with militant objection by those who have been indoctrinated with the 'immediate heaven, immediate hell' teaching of their particular denomination. It is SO true that old habits - and old beliefs - die hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
Yes, it is very hard to erase old teachings because often they have been so very-deeply embedded into people's minds by their clergy.
An inquiring mind wants to know. So, one needs to line up or compare what Jesus taught with traditional teachings.
Especially when the un-faithful Jews began mixing with Greek philosophy the idea of the dead being alive became popular.
Moreover - and I'm rather surprised that it hasn't been brought up on this thread as far as I'm aware - those who make the biblical claim that the dead 'sleep' are usually hit with a rather aggressive, "You only believe this because you're a member of the 7th-day Adventist cult!" Which is, of course, absolute nonsense. A scriptural truth is a scriptural truth, regardless of one's preferred Christian denomination. One's beliefs can usually be easily verified or rejected simply by going to the source, i.e., the Bible.
Furthermore, none of the SDAs I have known have EVER, to my knowledge, used the term 'soul sleep'. This is because the two - the 'body' that 'sleeps' and the 'spirit' or 'soul' that returns to God - are at odds with one another and so cannot be merged. The term 'soul sleep' appears to be used SOLELY by those who have sinister intentions toward the 'dead=sleep' believers. It's dishonest.
1. The Bible doesn't use the term 'soul sleep' because it doesn't teach it. You do however even though you don't understand that you teach it. Once again, the term 'soul sleep' is the term used to describe your non-biblical idea. I didn't make it up. It's the idea that the soul sleeps, or ceases to exist, depending on the particular belief of the person holding the view. As you've been told, the word 'soul', like most words has a range of meaning. It can refer to the complete person and it can refer to just the immaterial inner essence of the person. In the Bible the term 'sleep' when referring to death only to the body and says nothing about the state of the soul after physical death has occurred. 2. The soul goes to its afterlife destination whether heaven or sheol/hades.
3. You contradict yourself by saying that the soul is the complete person (post 37) while saying that the body is in the grave. The complete person is body, soul, and spirit. Since the body is in the grave while the soul is in heaven then the complete person cannot be in heaven. But the soul in the sense of being the immaterial inner part of man, that part that contains the intellect and emotions, etc., is in heaven. Again, while the word 'soul' can refer to the complete person, depending on the context, it can also refer to just the inner immaterial part of man. But you believe that the soul is nothing more than the breath and so when a person dies he ceases to exist until the resurrection. Thus the term 'soul sleep.' 4. You deny that a person goes to heaven when he dies but only his 'breath' does. And this is not what the Bible teaches.
5. Again, the Bible teaches that a person does go to heaven. Revelation chapters 6 and 7 clearly refer to people in heaven but you refuse to acknowledge what it says as valid. 6. Peter spoke of departing from his body at his soon coming death. When he said ''...as long as I am in this earthly dwelling...'' he was saying that his inner essence . . . his ''I'' was in his body, but that that part of him which gives him his personhood would be laying aside his body and departing, meaning that he would be going somewhere after leaving his body behind. Paul spoke of being absent from the body and at home with the Lord. So yes, the Bible teaches that after death a person's soul and spirit does go into the presence of the Lord who is in heaven. You deny all of this because of your presuppositions.
7. You are apparently incapable of being objective about what the Bible actually says about the matter, preferring to cherry pick only those verses which you think support your belief.
I'm done here because I don't have the patience to keep arguing about it.
There's no chance of you befriending me, is there, Michael?
I was going to let your post lie since you say that you've withdrawn from the topic. However, there are just a few things that I thought to address, even if only for the reader. The first thing is that I WOULDN'T THINK to use the term 'soul sleep' because it doesn't make sense. And, I've previously given my reasons why it doesn't make sense. This, once again, is the definition of 'soul' according to Strong's Bible Concordance:
SOUL:
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
1. THIS ^ according to scripture is what returns to God at death. The body, now devoid of the 'soul' or the 'spirit' or 'the breath' or that 'life-giving element' that causes a human being to function is now in a state of what the Bible refers to as 'sleep mode'. The 'soul' isn't in 'sleep mode' but the body is. The 'soul' has now returned to God. What God does with it is anybody's guess. And so, 'soul sleep' is a term that would not be used by anyone who actually knows their Bible.
2. The 'soul' goes to God. The 'body' is already IN 'hell', otherwise known as 'the grave.
3. Perhaps I did appear to contradict myself. Articulating oneself 100% in topics such as this one can be a bit tricky.
4. The Bible DOES teach that 'the breath' returns to God.
Ecc. 12:7 says, “Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.” When God receives His spirit back, our bodies return to the dust of the earth. This is indeed the case, for when life is gone from the body, it decomposes back into the ground.
5. 'Fraid not. As mentioned, using a couple of passages from the Book of Revelation, a book that combines literal, semi-literal, absolutely non-literal, visionary, prophetic, etc. as a means to destroy the MANY other places in the Bible THAT STATE THE CONTRARY is useful only at clutching at straws to support a false doctrine.
6. Peter and Paul knew that there would be an interim period between 'departing their body' and experiencing immortality. There is NOWHERE in these passages of scripture that imply IMMEDIATE heaven. Moreover, we KNOW that 'immediate heaven' would be contradicting what has already been established in many other places in the Bible. And so, we KNOW that Peter and Paul DID NOT promote what you and mainstream Christianity promote. If they were here right now, they would agree with the consistency of scripture and say that the dead 'sleep' until the resurrection and that their 'spirit', 'soul', breath' returns to God until such times as it's reunited with their body.
7. Objective? I'm simply presenting my findings as to what the Bible teaches on the thread topic. I've said this many times previously, "I" have no clue what happens when a person dies. This entire 'the body sleeps' and 'the breath goes back to God' sounds as weird to me as it probably does to many others. HOWEVER, this IS what the Bible says, regardless of what my personal thoughts may or may not be. The OP asked a question. I simply sought the answer to the question from a book that is said by Christians to be 'divine'.
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) of an individual waiting around in heaven for what could be thousands of years before being reunited to 'the body' on Resurrection Day? Moreover, if they are already in heaven, then why the need for a resurrection at all? It makes no sense. Surely, even spiritual matters require SOME kind of logic behind them.
No one receives special treatment since all are raised at the same time. They, along with the living 'righteous' receive 'their reward' at the same time. No one jumps the gun. It all seems to have been worked out quite well in advance as one would it expect it to have been. But then, 'mainstream Christianity' (and the influence of Catholicism) came along and fouled things up. 
