Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Years ago, my husband and I were in a remote region of Mexico to find this very remote village we were told about where no other gringos go or know about. The bus ride was over two hours on a rugged mountain dirt road.and was one of those decrepit buses partly open air held together by gum and bailing wire. People had chickens in cages on their laps and at a stop along a creek one man brought on his dead mother to be buried somewhere.
We thought we were on the most exotic adventure — so far from any other Gringos, tourists, or Americans.
After we explored the remote caves and unusual village we went to board the bus and a young gringo couple also boarded the bus.
Disappointed, but wanting to be friendly, we started a conversation — ends up they lived four houses down on our same street and knew our dog…..
Biggest coincidence of my life...and tied to religion:
I'm from Palmyra, NY -- where Joseph Smith founded Mormonism. His farm was just over the 'back hill' from my house...maybe 3/4 miles away, and Hill Cumorah (where he supposedly received the Golden Plates from the angel Moroni) was just down the road from my house. The first formal Mormon Church in the village was directly across the road from my childhood home.
Sometime in the 1980s, long after my immediate family had all moved to other states, I took a driving trip through the West. One of my stops was in Salt Lake City, because I wanted to visit the Mormon sites (such as Temple Square), even though me and my family were never Mormons...but I like history. I went to one of their two museums on Temple Square (I think now there is only one). When I went in I went up to the front desk and asked if they had much about my home town, and the docent said just the next room where there was a mockup of the print shop in Palmyra where the first Mormon bible was printed, but nothing beyond that. She wondered why I asked and I told her it was my home town and about the proximity of several Mormon sites to my childhood home. I spent about an hour in the museum and about four people came up to me asking if I was the "gentleman" from Palmyra; it seemed I was a sort of celebrity because they peppered me with friendly questions about the town and some of the Mormon-related sites. Just as I was about to leave, an old gentleman came up to me and asked: "Are you the young feller from Palmyra?" I said I was, and he said, "I'm originally from Palmyra. I bet we know some of the same people". He began naming some Palmyrans, and although I recognized the names, they weren't people I personally knew. Then he asked, "Did you ever know a woman named Hilda Schultz?" I hesitated and then said, "Well...yes...that's my mother!" He replied, "I used to date her!" We talked a few minutes longer and then I moved on to another site in Temple Square. When I got back to the hotel that evening I called my mother, who was still alive and living in Florida. I asked her if she ever knew a guy named ___". "Oh my god. Yes! He was such a pest!" And she related that they went on one date in high school. Now what are the odds?
Great stories, Mountainrose and Phetaroi. The closest I got to those kinds of coincidences was after joining facebook and seeing all the people who were friends with each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I saw it this past year. What stuck out to me is that the movie was made in 2001 and takes place in NYC, and yet there is not one shot of the WTC.
If you remember, the TV and movie industry made an effort at that time to cut out any scenes of the towers out of sensitivity to the 9/11 community. As a part of that community, I wish they would put them back in now.
I just watched the movie recently as well and didn't notice. If it was shot in NYC, those buildings probably would have made it in the movie. I know I saw them recently in another movie because I pointed them out to my daughter, but don't remember which one.
As you have requested, I will pick up where we left off with Donald Fagen’s Jewish identity, which I do think is strong in an ethnocultural sense.
This is something you pick up in bits and pieces, as he’ll tend to drop an anecdote here, a joke there, a one-liner someplace else, during his interviews (during which he will sometimes correct the widespread and understandable misconception that Walter Becker also had a Jewish background).
Here’s one excerpt from a 2013 article not terribly long after the release of Sunken Condos—a not-too-shabby album I remember listening to a lot in law school, around the time of its debut:
A kind of overactive self-awareness. That’s something I think can only come from some sort of strong feeling—be it pride or self-loathing—and I have seen nothing to suggest that Fagen is the self-loathing sort when it comes to his Jewish heritage (no doubt he can be angsty when it comes to some other personal subjects).
You can see more examples in this 2012 Tablet Mag article (same periodical, different author, vis-a-vis the first one I posted). There’s a funny story about a fastball-throwing rabbi (from a synagogue that his parents helped found in Central Jersey) in this 2021 Rolling Stone piece.
Might there be some confirmation bias on my part? Sure, to the extent that I, as a proud ethnocultural Jew, love Steely Dan’s music and feel a somewhat loose (but certainly palpable) sense of kindred spirit with Fagen. Maybe you’re resistant to the idea of Donald Fagen fitting that description for parallel reasons on your end—and that doesn’t make you or I any better or worse than one another, just different in that particular regard. There’s a personal essay Donald Fagen wrote about growing up Jewish after his parents moved to the new suburban outpost of Kendall Park, but I’m having trouble finding it. It may have been posted to a now-defunct blog.
Bob Dylan, I don’t particularly care for, and I find his dabbling in Evangelical Christianity is an especially eye roll-inducing cliche. I recognize and respect his musical genius and importance, but while I don’t hate his music I don’t especially love it either. He also doesn’t seem like a particularly good person, and he exhibits that in an off-putting (as opposed to a perversely alluring) way (like John Lennon, who was definitely a far worse human being, but whose music I appreciate more on a personal level).
I saw Dylan in concert ten years back and was not terribly impressed. He really seemed to phone in his performance and try to coast on the fact that Bob Dylan must be great because he’s Bob Dylan. On the other hand, I felt that the late Leon Russell, who was Dylan’s opening act that tour, put on an excellent show. Of course, there’s nothing the least bit Jewish about dear Leon—not that there’s anything wrong with that!
Glad to see you kick off this thread. Thanks, although I got to thinking maybe not all that necessary since my favorite mods don't seem too intolerant of off-topic comments in the threads they moderate. Still, it's nice to have somewhere to go with off-topics without worrying about any of that I think...
I have read again what you offer up as example of why you say Fagen "is most definitely an overt and proud Jew from an ethnocultural standpoint." I'm wondering if perhaps I've just got a different idea about what that means as compared to you, because I don't think making reference to one's past or heritage makes them "overt or proud" about their past and/or heritage.
I am also an amateur musician. I play piano/keyboards. Also half Italian by my mother's side as previously mentioned. (Mom is 100% Sicilian). Say I choose to incorporate the sound of an old Italian tune into a piece I'm composing, and say I tell you I've done this. Say I also "drop an anecdote here, a joke there, a one-liner someplace else" about my father being English...
Is this indication that I am an "overt and proud" half Italian half Englishman? I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me that way.
If so, okay, but I think there is a difference between simply drawing from your past and noting that sort of thing as compared to being overt and proud about it. Again, I've done that sort of thing, but I would not say I am overt or proud about my past or heritage as a result. I'm certainly not NOT proud, but I'm certainly not like some people who I would describe as "overt and proud" about such things. The sort of pride that comes to mind has something of a negative connotation for me, because I am a bigger fan of those who are less self-centered and less self-promoting along those lines. More humble about who they are and why.
I've always been a great admirer of Fagen and his music in any case. I don't in any way read anything negative into what he explains about where some of his music or history comes from. Everyone does that to some extent or another. I suppose we're talking degrees of overtness and pridefulness here.
This about confusing Becker as Jewish is also a new one for me. Perhaps for those who are not really Steely Dan fans is all I can imagine about that. Or what on earth would cause someone to be confused about that I wonder?
I have been to two Bob Dylan concerts. One in Berkeley (my alma mater) and the other one in Concord where I walked to the stadium there not far from where I lived at the time a good many years after Berkeley. Dylan in Berkeley is one of the worst concerts I have ever been to. He was half way through singing one of my favorite all time songs, "Tangled Up in Blue" before I could tell that's what he was singing. If you were to read the biography I read about Dylan, you might better appreciate what an incredible singer songwriter - artist/person - he truly is. How he does on the order of 100 concerts per year, and still going. Written over 600 songs. Some of his concerts have gone down in history as just amazing. Others that went down in flames, and all the while he never really cares how they turn out. He does what he wants to do and no one has ever compared in that regard. As you probably know, for a time he toured with the members of what would later become the Band, and for the longest time they went from one stage to the next all across the country suffering nothing but boos. In part caused by those who couldn't handle Dylan using an electric guitar. Dylan did care and simply instructed the other members on stage with him to do their thing anyway. Boos or not. Over and over again. Until later Dylan was back on top again. A truly amazing artist beyond compare. I have a good many of his albums too, and I am a huge fan even after that horrible experience in Berkeley.
When I first started to paint cars, that Steely Dan song "Do It Again" came on the radio as I was sitting there with butterflies in my stomach getting ready to get started. And that song came on the radio at least a dozen times in a row in the same scenario, which is quite a coincidence. And all the painting times were random from morning, midday and late at night and then throughout the years it would come on every now and then, in that moment. It actually played on the radio when I did my last paint job which was very high stress.
I have no idea what the lyrics are about. It has very well put together instruments in it. I don't know what to make of a coincidence happening so many times. After a while it just made me feel like everything was going to be all right. In those moments there is a lot on the table, and it all comes down to this.
"Do It Again" is one of many great Steely Dan tunes, and boy did I listen to that one over and over again many times too. Playing my album of course, not so much by radio, but back when they were coming out with their stuff, they were on the radio ALL THE TIME.
No doubt that sort of music helped inspire you to do some nice paint jobs. My late father-in-law painted many a car and refurbished many a classic that my wife and her sister recently inherited. When dating my soon-to-be bride, I would walk up to her father's house where she was living, and he'd be in the garage painting a car. I'd walk in that garage and damn near pass out from the paint fumes and the cigarette smoke (he smoked like a fiend). I never could figure out how he managed that, and needless to say it took a toll on his health, but man could he bring a car back from the dead and turn it into a beautiful work of art. He and his friends transported my wife and I from the church where we got married to our wedding reception in a parade of antique cars that he and his friends had refurbished. Quite the sight to see and ride to enjoy for us and the rest of our wedding party.
I've always been one to have music playing in the background while doing just about anything...
One night when I was a child, I asked God if my grandfather would go to hell because he didn't go to church and was angry at God. I asked for a sign. The very next day the local Catholic church set up a tent in the empty lot adjoining ours. Of course, the dutiful relatives sat up front row while I sat in the back with my grandfather so he wouldn't be alone. He decided he would make peace with God this time.
They picked me out to bring the bread and wine down to the makeshift altar. I was an altar server for many years prior so it was an easy decision to make. I picked my grandfather to carry the bread while I carried the wine and I accepted this as a sign from God.
There was no explanation to me why they set up that mass and it never happened again.
I'm beginning to love this thread already! Thank you for this one too.
If you like stories with coincidence, there is a movie called "Serendipity".
I know many people here want repeatable facts, proof and evidence. And yet sometimes the unexplainable happens.
I'm a big fan of coincidence and the unexplainable too, and boy have I experienced some really duzzies in my day, and I guess I'm okay to leave them be as coincidence and the unexplainable rather than get carried away like some people tend to do about such things...
Glad to see you kick off this thread. Thanks, although I got to thinking maybe not all that necessary since my favorite mods don't seem too intolerant of off-topic comments in the threads they moderate. Still, it's nice to have somewhere to go with off-topics without worrying about any of that I think...
I have read again what you offer up as example of why you say Fagen "is most definitely an overt and proud Jew from an ethnocultural standpoint." I'm wondering if perhaps I've just got a different idea about what that means as compared to you, because I don't think making reference to one's past or heritage makes them "overt or proud" about their past and/or heritage.
I am also an amateur musician. I play piano/keyboards. Also half Italian by my mother's side as previously mentioned. (Mom is 100% Sicilian). Say I choose to incorporate the sound of an old Italian tune into a piece I'm composing, and say I tell you I've done this. Say I also "drop an anecdote here, a joke there, a one-liner someplace else" about my father being English...
Is this indication that I am an "overt and proud" half Italian half Englishman? I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me that way.
If so, okay, but I think there is a difference between simply drawing from your past and noting that sort of thing as compared to being overt and proud about it. Again, I've done that sort of thing, but I would not say I am overt or proud about my past or heritage as a result. I'm certainly not NOT proud, but I'm certainly not like some people who I would describe as "overt and proud" about such things. The sort of pride that comes to mind has something of a negative connotation for me, because I am a bigger fan of those who are less self-centered and less self-promoting along those lines. More humble about who they are and why.
I've always been a great admirer of Fagen and his music in any case. I don't in any way read anything negative into what he explains about where some of his music or history comes from. Everyone does that to some extent or another. I suppose we're talking degrees of overtness and pridefulness here.
And I acknowledge that my interpretation may carry a bit of my confirmation bias, just as your interpretation may carry some of yours—although I don’t think that being humble, self-centered, or self-promoting has anything to do with it one way or the other (we both agree that Jewish pride doesn’t factor into Bob Dylan’s persona in the same way, but I would not call him humble, and he is quite the self-centered self-promoter).
But I do think the phrase “overactive self-awareness” speaks volumes, especially from the standpoint of Jewish identity.
I actually placed an order for Fagen’s autobiography, Eminent Hipsters, through my local library (all this talk about Becker and Fagen has gotten me curious to learn more about their musical journey). After it comes in and I have the chance to read, I’ll report back and let you know if it answers the question one way or the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
This about confusing Becker as Jewish is also a new one for me. Perhaps for those who are not really Steely Dan fans is all I can imagine about that. Or what on earth would cause someone to be confused about that I wonder?
That shouldn’t confuse you at all. Becker can be a Yiddish surname in the Northeastern United States as often as it is non-Jewish German, Becker grew up in distinctively Jewish areas like Scarsdale and Forest Hills, Queens, and Becker’s close kinship and long-standing association with Jews and knowledge and appreciation of Jewish culture makes the misconception quite understandable. Perhaps Becker’s relationship with his (I believe, mostly German) heritage is similar to your association with your Italian and English ancestry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I have been to two Bob Dylan concerts. One in Berkeley (my alma mater) and the other one in Concord where I walked to the stadium there not far from where I lived at the time a good many years after Berkeley. Dylan in Berkeley is one of the worst concerts I have ever been to. He was half way through singing one of my favorite all time songs, "Tangled Up in Blue" before I could tell that's what he was singing. If you were to read the biography I read about Dylan, you might better appreciate what an incredible singer songwriter - artist/person - he truly is. How he does on the order of 100 concerts per year, and still going. Written over 600 songs. Some of his concerts have gone down in history as just amazing. Others that went down in flames, and all the while he never really cares how they turn out. He does what he wants to do and no one has ever compared in that regard. As you probably know, for a time he toured with the members of what would later become the Band, and for the longest time they went from one stage to the next all across the country suffering nothing but boos. In part caused by those who couldn't handle Dylan using an electric guitar. Dylan did care and simply instructed the other members on stage with him to do their thing anyway. Boos or not. Over and over again. Until later was again back on top. A truly amazing artist beyond compare. I have a good many of his albums too, and I am a huge fan even after that horrible experience in Berkeley.
Like I said, I acknowledge and greatly respect his musical genius and importance, and he was a powerful influence on many singer-songwriters who resonate with me more. He just doesn’t do much for me personally.
Funnily enough, my young son has taken to me reading his Little People, BIG DREAMS book about Bob Dylan (a present from his Minnesota grandmother).
Last edited by ElijahAstin; 11-20-2022 at 08:26 AM..
Years ago, my husband and I were in a remote region of Mexico to find this very remote village we were told about where no other gringos go or know about. The bus ride was over two hours on a rugged mountain dirt road.and was one of those decrepit buses partly open air held together by gum and bailing wire. People had chickens in cages on their laps and at a stop along a creek one man brought on his dead mother to be buried somewhere.
We thought we were on the most exotic adventure — so far from any other Gringos, tourists, or Americans.
After we explored the remote caves and unusual village we went to board the bus and a young gringo couple also boarded the bus.
Disappointed, but wanting to be friendly, we started a conversation — ends up they lived four houses down on our same street and knew our dog…..
We were traveling in Europe with our kids once...
On a bus in Italy, we ended up sitting next to a family with a daughter our daughter recognized from her high school. Once was something of a coincidence in the first place, but then we bumped in to them again somewhere else along the way of our travels. On the same trip, we ended up having lunch at a table in a restaurant just outside of Portofino, and there at the table next to us was Geena Davis. In Italy where she was filming a TV show or movie (can't remember which). We couldn't resist asking her to sign a postcard we had just bought there. She was as nice about it as could be.
Your story reminds me of a trip my wife and I took to Puerto Vallarta before we were married. We ended up deciding to ride horses with a guide deep into the back-country that was just like you describe. I mean we were on a narrow trail, surrounded on all sides by lush impenetrable vegetation, occasionally passing by a shack hardly inhabitable but inhabited by a family here and there. "Miles from civilization."
When we remember that trip, my wife and I always think we would never do anything like that in Mexico nowadays. Probably shouldn't have then either. Could have been murdered or worse, robbed!
We also remember how my wife got pretty sick on that trip too...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
