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It is still the religion that their acts and character are based on...or isn't it. Because if it's not, then you might as toss the religion away as having to effect.
Well, not all Hindus are Gandhi, even if their religion is the same. All Buddhists are not Buddha even if they try to follow his teachings. Religion is only a base, teachings are the means to evolve. When one does or not or how is upto to each individual. We are shaped by our karma, but can change our destiny by how we act.
Just because a bunch of crazies raid the Capitol, it is not Democracy that is at fault. You can repeat that any number of times with any number of organization and institutions.
I roll my eyes a little when the standard-issue recitation of "do you think God is a genie/vending machine, etc." is the knee-jerk reaction when people ask honestly why God doesn't answer prayers. (Or why, by default of silence, it means the answer is "no".) It's belittling and dismissive to the asker, since I doubt very few people, particularly former Christians, ever thought of God that way.
But the religion does teach to ask in prayer, so what are the boundaries? Does this mean we should only ask for spiritual gifts, increases in faith, and what have you? So, accepting that by default, of course, all prayers are made with the "Thy Will Be Done" tag attached, are you saying that people should never ask for their earthly needs or desires? For the healing of friends and family members, for a marriage partner, for a child, for the opportunity to make a sufficient income? Those are prayers that aren't answered because they are things that shouldn't be asked for in the first place?
I was always taught that we DO ask for those things, and of course God gets the final say. What a Friend we have in Jesus, take it to the Lord in prayer a favorite song of many.
Are some of you saying it's wrong to do that to begin with? That petitions should be only to ask about spiritual matters?
I have read other people saying that this is NOT the case, that we should pray for what we need, although perhaps not as specifically as the vending-machine prayers; for example, if you need a way to get to work, pray for a method of transportation, not a brand-new car. But it seems that to some, even that is a no-no.
Perhaps that's why desperate people turn to other sources for help...
Well, not all Hindus are Gandhi, even if their religion is the same. All Buddhists are not Buddha even if they try to follow his teachings. Religion is only a base, teachings are the means to evolve. When one does or not or how is upto to each individual. We are shaped by our karma, but can change our destiny by how we act.
Just because a bunch of crazies raid the Capitol, it is not Democracy that is at fault. You can repeat that any number of times with any number of organization and institutions.
You had a lot to say, none of it actually responded to my primary point.
You had a lot to say, none of it actually responded to my primary point.
Your primary point seems to be if people do not behave according to what religion teaches, and can still call themselves religious, then one can do away with religion because everyone has the freedom to act regardless. If they act badly it is because of their religion. Is that right?
Religion is still relevant and essential for a community to function, whether people behave or not. What each person takes from religion is upto them.
If that is hard to understand then use Democracy as an analogy. Rule of law as an analogy.
I roll my eyes a little when the standard-issue recitation of "do you think God is a genie/vending machine, etc." is the knee-jerk reaction when people ask honestly why God doesn't answer prayers. (Or why, by default of silence, it means the answer is "no".) It's belittling and dismissive to the asker, since I doubt very few people, particularly former Christians, ever thought of God that way.
But the religion does teach to ask in prayer, so what are the boundaries? Does this mean we should only ask for spiritual gifts, increases in faith, and what have you? So, accepting that by default, of course, all prayers are made with the "Thy Will Be Done" tag attached, are you saying that people should never ask for their earthly needs or desires? For the healing of friends and family members, for a marriage partner, for a child, for the opportunity to make a sufficient income? Those are prayers that aren't answered because they are things that shouldn't be asked for in the first place?
I was always taught that we DO ask for those things, and of course God gets the final say. What a Friend we have in Jesus, take it to the Lord in prayer a favorite song of many.
Are some of you saying it's wrong to do that to begin with? That petitions should be only to ask about spiritual matters?
I have read other people saying that this is NOT the case, that we should pray for what we need, although perhaps not as specifically as the vending-machine prayers; for example, if you need a way to get to work, pray for a method of transportation, not a brand-new car. But it seems that to some, even that is a no-no.
Perhaps that's why desperate people turn to other sources for help...
(Warning, meant to be funny)
]
Do you believe every prayer should be answered as asked? What if i ask for something today and then change my mind tomorrow?
What if the prayer is for someone to die, or at least have a bad accident? Should the god you believe in grant all prayers for everyone who prays?
Finally are prayers different from wishes? I wish that cute guy will ask me for date. Is that a wish or a prayer?
In my opinion and in the way i think about prayer, and do, prayer is first of all adoration and worship. It might have no wishes attached to it at all. Or express gratitude. In hardship, yes asking for help, very much like the serenity prayer.
I am not saying that is what prayer should be for you or anyone else. But it is certainly not a knee jerk response, it is actually quite deeply contemplated.
I roll my eyes a little when the standard-issue recitation of "do you think God is a genie/vending machine, etc." is the knee-jerk reaction when people ask honestly why God doesn't answer prayers. (Or why, by default of silence, it means the answer is "no".) It's belittling and dismissive to the asker, since I doubt very few people, particularly former Christians, ever thought of God that way.
Sorry MQ, but I was simply going by what I've heard from a few former Christians turned atheist. No disrespect meant.
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But the religion does teach to ask in prayer, so what are the boundaries? Does this mean we should only ask for spiritual gifts, increases in faith, and what have you?
Of course not. However, if we don't get what we pray for, it may be for our spiritual benefit. At times I've tried to analyze why I may not have received an affirmative answer to prayer. Very often, I can see why.
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So, accepting that by default, of course, all prayers are made with the "Thy Will Be Done" tag attached, are you saying that people should never ask for their earthly needs or desires?
Again, of course not. The Bible tells us that we should pray for these things (as demonstrated by Jesus through the Lord's Prayer), but that our Heavenly Father knows what we need before we ask Him.
But if we pray, "Thy Will Be Done", and we don't get the specific thing we asked for, does that mean our prayers weren't answered? After all, if we're praying for His Will to be done, how could ANY prayer be counted as 'unanswered'?
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For the healing of friends and family members, for a marriage partner, for a child, for the opportunity to make a sufficient income? Those are prayers that aren't answered because they are things that shouldn't be asked for in the first place?
Nope, not saying that, either. I've asked for some of the things on your list...and got them. Not immediately, but I got them.
Quote:
I was always taught that we DO ask for those things, and of course God gets the final say. What a Friend we have in Jesus, take it to the Lord in prayer a favorite song of many.
Are some of you saying it's wrong to do that to begin with? That petitions should be only to ask about spiritual matters?
Not at all.
When I pray, I don't always or only pray for what I want. Sometimes, I simply pray giving God glory. Maybe I'll read some Psalms in praise (Psalm 104 is my fave) without asking for anything. Or, I'll list things I'm thankful for, no matter how small it may seem.
Quote:
I have read other people saying that this is NOT the case, that we should pray for what we need, although perhaps not as specifically as the vending-machine prayers; for example, if you need a way to get to work, pray for a method of transportation, not a brand-new car. But it seems that to some, even that is a no-no.
Perhaps that's why desperate people turn to other sources for help...
I've done both ways before. That is, sometimes I've asked for something specific. Other times, I've asked for something more general, as you related above, like a "method of transportation" and not a brand new car.
Do you believe every prayer should be answered as asked? What if i ask for something today and then change my mind tomorrow?
What if the prayer is for someone to die, or at least have a bad accident? Should the god you believe in grant all prayers for everyone who prays? Finally are prayers different from wishes? I wish that cute guy will ask me for date. Is that a wish or a prayer?
In my opinion and in the way i think about prayer, and do, prayer is first of all adoration and worship. It might have no wishes attached to it at all. Or express gratitude. In hardship, yes asking for help, very much like the serenity prayer.
I am not saying that is what prayer should be for you or anyone else. But it is certainly not a knee jerk response, it is actually quite deeply contemplated.
Your primary point seems to be if people do not behave according to what religion teaches, and can still call themselves religious, then one can do away with religion because everyone has the freedom to act regardless. If they act badly it is because of their religion. Is that right?
Religion is still relevant and essential for a community to function, whether people behave or not. What each person takes from religion is upto them.
If that is hard to understand then use Democracy as an analogy. Rule of law as an analogy.
Not really.
You seem to be saying that what happens is up to the person, not the religion.
I'm saying that how a person is living their life is supposed to be based on their religion.
And if it's not, what good is the religion?
A fair question to ask a Muslim, for example, is why is so much violence associated with their religion.
A fair question to ask a Buddhist, for example, is why are Burmese Buddhist monks actively involved in acts of violence and other discrimination against the Rohingya Muslims? Or, in Thailand, why are you monks blessing instruments of war?
There are many such questions that can be asked of all religions. And saying that, "It's just the people, not the religion" is avoiding the issues since some of those people will justify their behavior based on their religious beliefs. And if they're behaving inappropriately, based on their religious beliefs, what does that say about their religions?
You seem to be saying that what happens is up to the person, not the religion.
I'm saying that how a person is living their life is supposed to be based on their religion.
And if it's not, what good is the religion?
A fair question to ask a Muslim, for example, is why is so much violence associated with their religion.
A fair question to ask a Buddhist, for example, is why are Burmese Buddhist monks actively involved in acts of violence and other discrimination against the Rohingya Muslims? Or, in Thailand, why are you monks blessing instruments of war?
There are many such questions that can be asked of all religions. And saying that, "It's just the people, not the religion" is avoiding the issues since some of those people will justify their behavior based on their religious beliefs. And if they're behaving inappropriately, based on their religious beliefs, what does that say about their religions?
Or, what does that say about their beliefs about their religion?
I once knew a man who claimed to have been a Youth Minister for 18 years. Cursed up a storm and told me that he saw "nothing wrong with cussing."
And THAT'S what he's teaching those kids?
There are plenty of people who cherry-pick the Bible, or interpret certain verses to their own benefit...
...or detriment...
I also knew someone who claimed that it's a sin to gamble. When I asked him, "Why?" he said, "They casts lots for Christ's clothes!"
When I pointed out that lots were cast at other times in the bible--even to choosing a new apostle--he didn't seem to get it.
Or, what does that say about their beliefs about their religion?
I once knew a man who claimed to have been a Youth Minister for 18 years. Cursed up a storm and told me that he saw "nothing wrong with cussing."
And THAT'S what he's teaching those kids?
There are plenty of people who cherry-pick the Bible, or interpret certain verses to their own benefit...
...or detriment...
I am all in favor of cherry picking. Because cherry picking -- if done right -- means one is actually thinking.
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