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Old 07-26-2022, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand&Salt View Post
I have heard sentience described as "self-awareness". Like some animals understand mirrors, others don't.
The (as far as we know) unique aspect of human self-awareness is the ability to anticipate our future fate, which is the grave. In this sense, it is said that when humans achieved this, it was almost too much for them to bear. It is still directly and indirectly the source of much of our angst as a species.

Sentience definitionally does not require that level of self-awareness, it is more about the existence of an emotional life and is recognized as present in many animal species. It is the basis for empathy toward animals; in the West especially we disparage cruelty to, e.g., dogs and cats because we understand that they suffer as a result of their feeling states, and also, they have attachments to us which are betrayed thereby. However, even though I am convinced that one of my dogs has existential concerns of a sort, I do not think they extend to an awareness that he isn't going to live forever. He is just not quite as in the "eternal now" as many other dogs. It is like a cartoon I once saw of a german shepherd staring pensively at the sunset, and thinking, "what if I never figure out who's a good dog?"
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Old 07-26-2022, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The (as far as we know) unique aspect of human self-awareness is the ability to anticipate our future fate, which is the grave. In this sense, it is said that when humans achieved this, it was almost too much for them to bear. It is still directly and indirectly the source of much of our angst as a species.

Sentience definitionally does not require that level of self-awareness, it is more about the existence of an emotional life and is recognized as present in many animal species. It is the basis for empathy toward animals; in the West especially we disparage cruelty to, e.g., dogs and cats because we understand that they suffer as a result of their feeling states, and also, they have attachments to us which are betrayed thereby. However, even though I am convinced that one of my dogs has existential concerns of a sort, I do not think they extend to an awareness that he isn't going to live forever. He is just not quite as in the "eternal now" as many other dogs. It is like a cartoon I once saw of a german shepherd staring pensively at the sunset, and thinking, "what if I never figure out who's a good dog?"
Although it's not particularly relevant to this discussion, C S Lewis discussed this in his book " The Problem of Pain"

As many Christians believe in sacrafice, and the virtue of suffering as uniquely human, do animals actually suffer as humans do, or do they merely feel pain.
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Old 07-26-2022, 03:48 PM
 
Location: minnesota
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Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Although it's not particularly relevant to this discussion, C S Lewis discussed this in his book " The Problem of Pain"

As many Christians believe in sacrafice, and the virtue of suffering as uniquely human, do animals actually suffer as humans do, or do they merely feel pain.
My dog's separation anxiety says they do.
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Old 07-26-2022, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Florida
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One of the traits of our beasts breed, is that it will defend you till the death.

Is that virtuous, or merely a good survival stradegy.

Don't know. But....

We do provide her with some scrumdilyumtious goodies
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Old 07-26-2022, 04:07 PM
 
Location: minnesota
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Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
One of the traits of our beasts breed, is that it will defend you till the death.

Is that virtuous, or merely a good survival stradegy.

Don't know. But....

We do provide her with some scrumdilyumtious goodies
Same could be said of humans.
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Old 07-26-2022, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Although it's not particularly relevant to this discussion, C S Lewis discussed this in his book " The Problem of Pain"

As many Christians believe in sacrafice, and the virtue of suffering as uniquely human, do animals actually suffer as humans do, or do they merely feel pain.
I believe that they suffer, worry, etc. Maybe at a simpler level or lower amplitude than us in important ways. But the fact that dogs have been known to make their way back to their masters across thousands of miles, to grieve over their graves, etc., or simply the fact that our dogs understand quite well when we are happy or sad, tells me that they have the same range of emotions that we do. They simply do not fully understand the reasons why we are happy, sad, arguing or whatever.
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Old 07-26-2022, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,339,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I believe that they suffer, worry, etc. Maybe at a simpler level or lower amplitude than us in important ways. But the fact that dogs have been known to make their way back to their masters across thousands of miles, to grieve over their graves, etc., or simply the fact that our dogs understand quite well when we are happy or sad, tells me that they have the same range of emotions that we do. They simply do not fully understand the reasons why we are happy, sad, arguing or whatever.
I own a plaque with a saying from Mark Twain:

If there are no dogs in heaven, I want go where they are.
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:18 PM
 
63,809 posts, read 40,087,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I believe that they suffer, worry, etc. Maybe at a simpler level or lower amplitude than us in important ways. But the fact that dogs have been known to make their way back to their masters across thousands of miles, to grieve over their graves, etc., or simply the fact that our dogs understand quite well when we are happy or sad, tells me that they have the same range of emotions that we do. They simply do not fully understand the reasons why we are happy, sad, arguing or whatever.
"Whatsoever ye do to these the least of my creatures ye do to me." is unambiguous. God is ONE and I have experienced it with zero doubt. All this separateness we experience is illusionary and temporary. YMMV!
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:24 PM
 
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Dogs certainly appear to have anxiety, anticipation, concern for others, happiness and sadness. Cows appear to have less than dogs. Some people seem to be more like a cow than a dog.
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,809 posts, read 24,321,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
"Whatsoever ye do to these the least of my creatures ye do to me." is unambiguous. God is ONE and I have experienced it with zero doubt. All this separateness we experience is illusionary and temporary. YMMV!
Where do you get that quote?
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