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I'm happy to continue to follow the format was agreed to. You want to take TotN's place and debate me? We could start a special new thread for you "Comparing Paganism and Christianty." I see you over in the Christianity forum, so you must really know your stuff.
Last edited by Iwasmadenew; 08-29-2019 at 05:14 PM..
Your question to me was off-topic. You agreed to the format of this discussion. I'm happy to continue if you're still agreeable to the format, but if not, it seems like you're saying you're done having the type of discussion we both agreed to.
If you don't want to follow the format, you are essentially saying you no longer agree with what you already agreed to. Please clarify if you are done with this thread, or not?
Ask me a question about my answer to the "origin of the universe" question if you want to continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
That’s a theory, but not one that has the credibility of the Big Bang theory. As I noted earlier, from the wikipedia page:
"Current knowledge is insufficient to determine if the singularity was primordial (i.e. existed prior to the Big Bang)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
We are led back to the big bang by cause and effect. Cause and effect indicate that the big bang was the effect of an earlier cause. We don't know what the earlier cause of the big bang was, AS YET! We can either make up a cause entirely from imagination, or we can employ deductive reasoning. But the end result is, we don't know with anything approaching certainty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Are you suggesting a scenario where another universe existed, prior to our ‘big bang’, that contained a star (several times the mass of our Sun) that collapsed, resulting in a black hole that provided the energy that caused the Big Bang that created our universe? If so, please cite a source for this theory. I would like to investigate its credibility.
I am suggesting that more may exist than the visible universe that we inhabit. Was the big bang the result of a collapsing star? I do not have that information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Even if you entertain the multiverse theory, there had to be a cause that preceded the 'event' of the first ‘big bang’?
Upon what direct information do you base the concept of ultimate origin?" Where does a bubble begin and end?
We are led back to the big bang by cause and effect. Cause and effect indicate that the big bang was the effect of an earlier cause. We don't know what the earlier cause of the big bang was, AS YET! We can either make up a cause entirely from imagination, or we can employ deductive reasoning. But the end result is, we don't know with anything approaching certainty.
I am suggesting that more may exist than the visible universe that we inhabit. Was the big bang the result of a collapsing star? I do not have that information.
It seems like you're telling me your answer to the 'origin of the universe' question is, "I don't have an answer." Is it fair to say you are agnostic as the the 'origin of the universe' question?
You mentioned the multiverse theory and suggested that our universe might have been birthed out of the energy provided by a black hole from a collapsed giant star from a different, prior universe. This doesn't address origin question; the first universe.
If you have any authoritative sources that lend credibility to your theory, please cite them.
Quote:
Upon what direct information do you base the concept of ultimate origin?" Where does a bubble begin and end?
I went into detail about why I belief a creator God is responsible for creating our universe. I believe an eternal, creator God is the 'ultimate origin.' I don't want to start repeating what I've already said, but if you have a specific question related to my reasoning (as I'm doing with you), I'll be happy to answer it. Here's my post covering this topic: Comparing Atheism and Christianity
Quote:
Can we move on now?
I have more to say on the origin question that won't be repeating myself and I would be surprised if others following this thread would consider our exchange about the origin question as finished.
Last edited by Iwasmadenew; 08-29-2019 at 07:02 PM..
It seems like you're telling me your answer to the 'origin of the universe' question is, "I don't have an answer." Is it fair to say you are agnostic as the the 'origin of the universe' question?
You mentioned the multiverse theory and suggested that our universe might have been birthed out of the energy provided by a black hole from a collapsed giant star from a different, prior universe. This doesn't address origin question; the first universe.
If you have any authoritative sources that lend credibility to your theory, please cite them.
I went into detail about why I belief a creator God is responsible for creating our universe. I believe an eternal, creator God is the 'ultimate origin.' I don't want to start repeating what I've already said, but if you have a specific question related to my reasoning (as I'm doing with you), I'll be happy to answer it. Here's my post covering this topic: Comparing Atheism and Christianity
I have more to say on the origin question that won't be repeating myself and I would be surprised if others following this thread would consider our exchange about the origin question as finished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Post #33 of this thread
seems like you're telling me your answer to the 'origin of the universe' question is, "I don't have an answer." Is it fair to say you are agnostic as the the 'origin of the universe' question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Post #8 of this threadNo one knows who wrote the laws of physics or where they come from. Science is based on testable, reproducible evidence, and so far we cannot test the universe before the Big Bang.
— Michio Kaku
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Post # 9 of this thread
Michio Kaku is correct. We have no direct knowledge of what occurred before the big bang. The big bang itself is not something that we can observe and conduct experiments on. We can only observe and conduct experiments on conditions which exist today.
Trying to find new ways of saying things I have already said is tedious. Cutting and pasting them is much easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Post #33 of this thread
You mentioned the multiverse theory and suggested that our universe might have been birthed out of the energy provided by a black hole from a collapsed giant star from a different, prior universe. This doesn't address origin question; the first universe.
If you have any authoritative sources that lend credibility to your theory, please cite them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Post #11 of this thread.
Are you suggesting a scenario where another universe existed, prior to our ‘big bang’, that contained a star (several times the mass of our Sun) that collapsed, resulting in a black hole that provided the energy that caused the Big Bang that created our universe? If so, please cite a source for this theory. I would like to investigate its credibility.
YOU were the one that introduced the notion that the big bang was the result of the collapse of a giant star. Although admittedly the notion of a star with the mass of the our entire visible universe is a spectacular idea. What did I actually say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Post #9 of this thread
Based on the example of black holes, what occurred prior to the big bang? The implication is, a period of massive gravitational collapse. And prior to THAT? Attempting to answer that question would be getting to far ahead of ourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Post #33 of this string
I went into detail about why I belief a creator God is responsible for creating our universe. I believe an eternal, creator God is the 'ultimate origin.' I don't want to start repeating what I've already said, but if you have a specific question related to my reasoning (as I'm doing with you), I'll be happy to answer it. Here's my post covering this topic: Comparing Atheism and Christianity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Post #9 of this thread
The religious of course maintain that God was the cause. God created energy from nothing. And what was God's cause? In violation of all observation, God is declared to be without cause!
And from whence came THIS observation? It's not an observation at all. It was simply made up and declared to be true. It therefore represents makebelieve!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
I have more to say on the origin question that won't be repeating myself and I would be surprised if others following this thread would consider our exchange about the origin question as finished.
I would consider it finished before you even started. The answer to the Question about 'Who made everything, then?' is "Nobody knows ". agnostic, yes which is why atheists are agnostic atheists who logically say 'we don't know for sure how the universe..or rather, where the stuff from which the universe was made -came from'. And Theists are either agnostics who say they don't know so it must be God or they claim that they do know and it's God. Both of which are unsound and baseless faith - claims and the argument was dead before you started.
Yes, We are as anxious as ToN to move on from this pointless and moribund argument - which only leads to 'Which god?' anyway. May I suggest that you agree 'for sake of the argument' to suppose as a hypothesis that the universe (or proto -universe stuff) was created by a god. So what?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-30-2019 at 12:35 AM..
I would consider it finished before you even started. The answer to the Question about 'Who made everything, then?' is Nobody knows - agnostic, yes which is why atheists are agnostic atheists who logically say 'we don't know for sure how the universe..or rather, where the stuff from which the universe was made -came from'. And Theists are either agnostics who say they don't know so it must be God or they do know and it's God. Both of which are unsound and baseless faith -claim and the point was dead before you started.
Yes, We are as anxious as ToN to move on from this pointless and moribund argument - which only leads to 'Which go?' anyway. May I suggest that you agree 'for sake of the argument' to suppose as a hypothesis that the universe (or proto -universe stuff) was created by a god. So what?
Believing that god did it is way simpler. One doesn't have to think or do math or astronomy or logic or anything that even slightly resembles hard work. It was magic! See how easy that was?
I know. The slightest concession and the believers will pretend that they have 'proved God's existence'. That's why we have to battle this one..as you have done. But it means that the argument will have go on as Iwomade can't let this one go with no god 'accepted' because the debate ends there.
I'd suggest getting it signed in blood that FSoA does NOT imply any acceptance of a god but..'if we supposed that a god made everything...then what about it?' But it's your debate, not mine.
YOU were the one that introduced the notion that the big bang was the result of the collapse of a giant star. Although admittedly the notion of a star with the mass of the our entire visible universe is a spectacular idea. What did I actually say?
A black hole can result from the collapse of a star several times the mass of the sun. When it occurs all the material, which Steven Hacking referred to as "information," disappears entirely from our plane of existence. Only its gravity remains.
...
So when the question is asked, "where did the energy of the big bang come from, the answer, based on the example of black holes, is someplace else. Energy can neither be created or destroyed. But it can disappear and reappear someplace else. Based on the example of black holes, what occurred prior to the big bang? The implication is, a period of massive gravitational collapse. And prior to THAT? Attempting to answer that question would be getting to far ahead of ourselves.
You're complicating something very simple...
1. if your answer to the 'origin of the universe' question is, "I don't have an answer," then just say so.
2. If you have a specific question about my answer to the same question, ask it. If you don't have any more questions for me about my answer to the 'origin' question, we can move on to question #2.
My suspicion, though, is that you've lost confidence and you would prefer to try to sabotage this thread rather than having to explicitly state that you're giving up.
Last edited by Iwasmadenew; 08-30-2019 at 08:36 AM..
I know. The slightest concession and the believers will pretend that they have 'proved God's existence'. That's why we have to battle this one..as you have done. But it means that the argument will have go on as Iwomade can't let this one go with no god 'accepted' because the debate ends there.
I'd suggest getting it signed in blood that FSoA does NOT imply any acceptance of a god but..'if we supposed that a god made everything...then what about it?' But it's your debate, not mine.
I'm not asking TotN to accept that God created the universe, nor do I have any expectations of changing his opinions. We are answering "3 big questions" about life, based on our worldviews, and debating the merits of our reasoning for those answers. I would consider an answer of "I don't know" (agnostic) to be a more reasoned answer than a conclusion of, "I know that a God didn't create it" (atheism).
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I know. The slightest concession and the believers will pretend that they have 'proved God's existence'. That's why we have to battle this one..as you have done. But it means that the argument will have go on as Iwomade can't let this one go with no god 'accepted' because the debate ends there. 