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Serious Conversation - It sounds like your confusing religion and spirituality. All the negativity you've received has come from people, churches, and religion. But how about the one-on-one spiritual connection between you and God (or other higher power/force)? Maybe you haven't sought that, or experienced that, yet. We have every reason to be disinterested with religion, but how about the 'real deal'?
This is getting to be a very, VERY old canard. When I was an evangelical, I touted the difference between "religion and relationship" too. But the problem is not the authenticity vs institutionalization of belief, it is the underlying epistemology of religious faith.
When you can tell me how you can intersubjectively demonstrate that your personal belief in god is different than your imagination, then we might have conversation about how genuine or authentic any one person's personal subjective experience of god is, vs what's represented by institutionalized religion. Until then, it is simply a question to me of whether you're a religion of one, or subscribe to a group religion where there's very little daylight between your personal and corporate / shared beliefs.
Religion is the “real deal.” It affects a person’s emotions and a their perception of reality, and it can be addictive and destroy lives, much like a drug.
If religion wasn’t the “real deal,” it wouldn’t be so popular.
True, but Thoreau's line is one I can appreciate because it throws a lifeline to the believer drowning in loss of belief. Theism without organised religion. It's even grudgingly acceptable to the religious. And we atheists are fine with it, even if we don't accept sortagod anymore than Biblegod.
I believe in some of creator power/force. I don't put much stock in most organized denominations.
Not sure why you are here, but welcome. I'd venture to say that you have a solid grounding in what it means to participate constructively (both for you and for your community) in society and I see no good reason to worry about loss of interest in various perceptions about the nature of that grounding. If you are happy in your community and don't feel the need for "spiritual" interaction carry on, ya know?
I believe in some of creator power/force. I don't put much stock in most organized denominations.
The universe may have been born.
Its really the most valid interpretation I have come up with. We can solve issues emotionally or logically including all points in between. I have little issue with the more emotional solutions until people make laws that force me to follow their emotions.
"spiritual" or not is irrelevant to treating your neighbor with courtesy.
I've always been spiritual and see its diminishment as a result of bloated masculine principles like order, logic, reason, science etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I would be distressed to think that order, logic, reason, science and the like was something foreign to the female of the species.
It is not foreign, just not dominant. It is and has been changing for a long time, but you have to realize that for generations and generations females were relegated to being "seen and not heard." This produced a focus among females on the non-verbal modes of communication over the more verbal, logical, and reasoned. If you have ever wondered what the source of "women's intuition" is, the answer is their focus on and sensitivity to the non-verbal cues and clues. Most men are not very sensitive to such cues and really do not control them very well. That is not true of most women. Perhaps some husbands can relate to this scenario. You are out with the guys for a night of drinking and you get sloshed. You can barely form coherent sentences, but your wife wants to talk to you about your night out. Let me clue you in if you are not in control of your non-verbals when sober, the fact is that when you are sloshed you have an amplifier on them.
This is getting to be a very, VERY old canard. When I was an evangelical, I touted the difference between "religion and relationship" too. But the problem is not the authenticity vs institutionalization of belief, it is the underlying epistemology of religious faith.
When you can tell me how you can intersubjectively demonstrate that your personal belief in god is different than your imagination, then we might have conversation about how genuine or authentic any one person's personal subjective experience of god is, vs what's represented by institutionalized religion. Until then, it is simply a question to me of whether you're a religion of one, or subscribe to a group religion where there's very little daylight between your personal and corporate / shared beliefs.
An interesting point here.
I think there's 2 truths with respect to how this - having separate views to organised religion - can work, and they're both hinted at in the Bible. Unfortunately, they are both conjured and substantiated by people's 'heart felt' experiences, which may or may not be better than their imaginations. If it was just raw imagination, with no feelings of validity, I don't think people would go along with it the same.
Firstly, the principle of 'come out from them' - we are supposed to separate ourselves from people groups who are not practicing the truth, ... obviously as we individually understand it.
Secondly, a verse in both Isaiah and the new testament,. but with wrong intent in the latter with respect to where the way was to be prepared. 'A voice of one crying, "In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord. Make straight paths for Him...."' (Isaiah version). This talks about coming out of the city, Jerusalem, where the religious groups were, to a solitary place, and finding how it works with God there.
The epistemology of faith is therefore not found and understood, until the separation in one's own heart, from the group has happened. Unfortunately, there are bitter threads observed in these pages time and again where people have got offended at the hypocrisy in religion and thought to hell with this and their God. And they're not wrong. It's not that Father I'm.trying to find.
But the distinction between corporate and personal is made in the heart - one doesn't physically have to ditch fellowship or church altogether. It can be of limited effect to be a thorn in the flesh to the religious corporates, who don't think for themselves, but like a child of the spirit/wind, Father will move/blow us to where He wants us - that could be anywhere.
One of the especially obvious yokes place round necks, particularly in the evangelical churches I've been in, is that of 'coming under the leadership' - authority. They make a case for this as per Apostle Paul's dictate to submit to those in authority. My understanding is that that, and to pray for those in authority may have been added to the 'scripture' afterwards, as we are admonished NOT to do, i.e. add or take away Where by contrast, Jesus was an egalitarian, and indeed Paul also captured that with a 'submit one to another' - implying it was supposed to be a gifting / body relationship between individuals where each one weighs and tests themselves. I think the appointment of elders and deacons was for expediency in what was then a fast growing company, and also some sort of acknowledgement of spiritual standing. Unfortunately now, the church isn't growing that fast, and they allow people into 'leadership' who will do as they're told, and because they want some sort of career in 'ministry'. It's just not the best way. If any group of believers could genuinely submit one to another under their different giftings/anointings - as opposed to just doing what the leader says - then there would be an outbreak of kingdom activity and growth amongst them. It's common sense really - let people do what they're good at.
Last edited by Age-enduring; 03-17-2018 at 02:28 AM..
It is not foreign, just not dominant. It is and has been changing for a long time, but you have to realize that for generations and generations females were relegated to being "seen and not heard." This produced a focus among females on the non-verbal modes of communication over the more verbal, logical, and reasoned. If you have ever wondered what the source of "women's intuition" is, the answer is their focus on and sensitivity to the non-verbal cues and clues. Most men are not very sensitive to such cues and really do not control them very well. That is not true of most women. Perhaps some husbands can relate to this scenario. You are out with the guys for a night of drinking and you get sloshed. You can barely form coherent sentences, but your wife wants to talk to you about your night out. Let me clue you in if you are not in control of your non-verbals when sober, the fact is that when you are sloshed you have an amplifier on them.
Well, I have my own theories about women and why they appear to be incapable of logic when in fact they can be as logical as any. But this isn't the place for them. I also gather that men are not insensible to unseen signals, but they are different ones. We have slightly different evolved instincts and we look out for different things.
None of which is really to do with mystical realities or a supposed or perceived inability to be practical by one gender interpreted to mean that they are naturally attuned to a higher spiritual level.
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