Why are Baptists so political and controlling? (soul, Mormons, gospel)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The KJV-only movement was quite a fringe movement back in the mid 1970s when I became aware of it through a word processing service I ran at the time; I typed a master's thesis for a Baptist theological seminary student who had a huge appendix / addendum on the topic.
Are they growing, do you know? I'm surprised to still hear about it forty years later.
They have a definite following, no doubt spurred on by social media. There is a church or two in my town that is KJV only .
It's weird...I've never met an ESV-onlyist.....I just find it weird that someone would put that much faith in an English TRANSLATION.
Quote:
For me, even then, it was a bridge too far, and in retrospect, hearing of it was one of the things that started to erode my own evangelical faith. I mean, it's one thing to claim that God inspired the original manuscripts; but the implicit "WASP supremacy" in the notion that he also inspired a particular translation "for the English-speaking peoples" which leads to all sorts of conspiracy theories about things like Wescott & Hort being a corruption from Satan to undermine the Textus Receptus ... it was just about three notches too nutty for me, even as a fundamentalist Christian. That, and hyper-dispensationalism, led me to begin to question, if people can wander that far off the rails, how nutty might some of my beliefs potentially be.
Besides, I NEVER heard them take a position about what god's approved translation was for "the Spanish-speaking peoples" or the "French-speaking peoples". I guess it was of no concern ...
Great point. And that's a major reason why I'm not a KJV only guy. I just don't get it.
The Baptist church isn't the most culturally conservative church. It is however, perhaps one of the most controlling denominations in terms of its political activism and its desire to impose itself on the non-believing world. While the Amish and certain sects of Mennonite, Church of Christ, and LDS make Baptists look quite liberal, those denominations are more inclined to keep their legalism to themselves and not try to impose it on society at large. Baptists on the other hand feel its their mission to control the morality of society and be the conscience of the culture. Most blue laws, such as alcohol laws and other Sunday commerce bans, were led by Baptists. Baptists are at the front lines of the fight against LGBT equality, gambling, and the fight against marijuana legalization. You don't hear as much about this today, but at one point the Baptists were proponents of laws banning dancing (which many municipalities in the Bible Belt had) and censorship of the airwaves.
Baptists are also at the forefront of breaking down separation of church and state, which is ironic given that historically the Baptists were among the most pro-church/state separation denominations. They will typically proclaim that separation of church and state is a myth and that the founders wanted a Christian (Baptist) nation, but that is part of their propaganda that they use to circumvent the First Amendment. Baptist dominated states, like Oklahoma and other Southern states, tend to be some of the most repressed, both in laws against activities perceived as sinful by Baptists and discrimination against non-Christians or the wrong types of Christians. Baptists are especially obsessed with things such as Christian monuments on government property and other displays of religiosity by government organizations or government officials.
Question is, why is this? How did the Baptists become so political and they do they, unlike other conservative denominations, feel that they should impose their morality on society at large and that it's their right to control the culture?
Why do ask a question by making your opinion sound like fact?
You must Not be referring to the United Church of Christ, as that denomination is very socially liberal. (The Obamas's are former members).
No, I am referring to Church of Christ, a conservative denomination that believes that only those who are baptized within that denomination can make it to heaven and that musical instruments are a sin. The United Church of Christ is a separate denomination that has nothing to do with the Church of Christ and it is one of the most liberal denominations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
You're kidding, right? I mean, you *do* live in the United States, I presume? Because your comment above makes me think you don't.
Atheists and pagans are not imposing any type of morality (or lack thereof) onto anyone else.
What we atheists have *always* espoused is for our government to give everyone the *choice* to decide for themselves what their moral compass ought to be and how far to take it.
If you think giving people the freedom to make their own decisions is "imposing our morality or lack thereof" onto society at large or controlling the culture, you're one confused puppy.
Take the best example of the last 40 years -- marriage equality, also known as the "gay marriage" war.
WE atheists were not imposing morality of any kind. Instead, most of us defended the right for gays to marry because not everyone sees homosexuality as immoral. Rather, it was the fundamentalists and evangelicals who were imposing their morality on the rest of society by saying gay marriage must be banned because THEY believed it was immoral.
In other words, all 320 million Americans would have been forced by the government to obey the Bible whether they were Christian or not, whether they believed homosexuality was immoral or not. After all, why should two gay Hindus give a damn about what the Bible says -- and why should two gay atheists be forced to treat their own lifestyle as "immoral" because a God they don't believe exists says it is?
Atheists merely want to live in a nation where we have the choice, the freedom to choose, for ourselves the path of our lives ... and NOT have someone *else's* belief system dictating to us what we can and cannot do.
That is NOT imposing morality onto anyone nor is it controlling the culture. In fact, it is the fundamentalists and evangelicals who wish to impose their moral system onto society at large and control the culture -- as if they believe that our culture belongs to them and them alone. Those Christians acted as if their religion owned marriage and thus had the right to decide for the entire country who could and couldn't marry.
The atheist philosophy was: If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, don't engage in homosexual acts and, for heaven's sake, don't marry someone of the same gender! No one is forcing those Christians to live a gay lifestyle or marry someone they don't want to marry. They can still practice their beliefs to their hearts' content.
Unless you can explain to me precisely how atheists and pagans are imposing our morality onto everyone else thus controlling the culture -- instead of simply saying that they are and providing no examples -- you really don't have a case.
I agree with this completely. What Orion Rules posted is a classic example of the oppressors trying to portray themselves as the oppressed. They feel their rights are being infringed on if they are not allowed to force everyone to live by their rules.
While their are fringe, anti-Christian agendas out there and I am not going to deny that, most secularists simply want a society where everyone can choose for themselves what to believe and what morals to live by. Secularists simply don't believe it's the government's place to enforce moral values. And before one of the evangelical posters inevitably posts "well why don't we legalize murder?", there is a huge difference between acts like murder, rape, theft, etc which actually harm people and things like getting high on a natural plant or having consensual sex. Conservatives claim to be the party of small government yet they want to control everyone's private lives.
BaptistFundie: Again...we are voters. Why are atheists and pagans so political and why do they, unlike other people, feel they should impose their morality, or lack thereof, on society at large, and that it's right to control the culture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
You're kidding, right? I mean, you *do* live in the United States, I presume? Because your comment above makes me think you don't.
[...]
Atheists merely want to live in a nation where we have the choice, the freedom to choose...
What country the Bible is being read at makes no difference per what the sermons might say that if Genesis 1 is not the rule to follow then what more is there to say about rule #2.
First off, your whole comment is designed to make America be the saddest place there must be on the planet because everyone knows that America is being sent God's judgment.
Even people who do not follow any Bible or care to hear about a single scripture which might state how America deserves to be judged have said that America is going to have it.
There is not a single reason why the homosexuals and those of what they call an alternative lifestyle could not just keep their business to themselves but instead ran around bent.
Marriage is when they consummated so they were already 'married' in the form they took upon themselves to feel freedom to do what they wanted to do so why not just be quiet.
A marriage is a union between one man and one woman as Genesis 1 states male and female, but if you wish to alter yourself to something else then why apply/pray for a license?
Just go away with the alternative lifestyle you have said enough about the subject everyone's heard the same a thousand times already that what a subject to bait with constantly.
Of course the whole idea is to push a concept over and over and over with what you call 'normal' as that's the world you got is Sodom and Gomorrah so just live on and be it happy.
What country the Bible is being read at makes no difference per what the sermons might say that if Genesis 1 is not the rule to follow then what more is there to say about rule #2.
First off, your whole comment is designed to make America be the saddest place there must be on the planet because everyone knows that America is being sent God's judgment.
Even people who do not follow any Bible or care to hear about a single scripture which might state how America deserves to be judged have said that America is going to have it.
There is not a single reason why the homosexuals and those of what they call an alternative lifestyle could not just keep their business to themselves but instead ran around bent.
Marriage is when they consummated so they were already 'married' in the form they took upon themselves to feel freedom to do what they wanted to do so why not just be quiet.
A marriage is a union between one man and one woman as Genesis 1 states male and female, but if you wish to alter yourself to something else then why apply/pray for a license?
Just go away with the alternative lifestyle you have said enough about the subject everyone's heard the same a thousand times already that what a subject to bait with constantly.
Of course the whole idea is to push a concept over and over and over with what you call 'normal' as that's the world you got is Sodom and Gomorrah so just live on and be it happy.
That's easy to figure out. Complicity is the name of the game. If you are sinning and you get a whole country to agree to be complicit with your sinning by passing laws in agreement with it, then it's no longer just you being in judgment, but the whole country. The spirits involved always look for ways to inflict the most collateral damage. Of course that's because we're in a war.
It's sort of like if you are a student at one of the old time honor based prep schools and you cheat on your test and you tell the whole class you did it, while the teacher steps out of the room a sec. And then you talk the whole class into agreeing to lie about whether or not they know you cheated, in the mistaken belief the teacher won't flunk the whole class for complicity and lying, just because they didn't cheat on their test as well. Peace
That's easy to figure out. Complicity is the name of the game. If you are sinning and you get a whole country to agree to be complicit with your sinning by passing laws in agreement with it, then it's no longer just you being in judgment, but the whole country. The spirits involved always look for ways to inflict the most collateral damage. Of course that's because we're in a war.
It's sort of like if you are a student at one of the old time honor based prep schools and you cheat on your test and you tell the whole class you did it, while the teacher steps out of the room a sec. And then you talk the whole class into agreeing to lie about whether or not they know you cheated, in the mistaken belief the teacher won't flunk the whole class for complicity and lying, just because they didn't cheat on their test as well. Peace
Well, for the moment, we are not a theocracy and we still have separation of church and state. The Constitution of the United States is the law of the land, not the Bible. With the way things are headed now I am not sure how much longer that will be, but for now we still have a First Amendment.
Secondly, even if you force religious piety on the entire country at gunpoint, with the threat of imprisonment or death if they do not obey, you aren't saving any souls. You may create a nation of pious non-believers, but Christianity is a heart thing. People are in fact more likely to reject Christianity when they feel it is being forced on them involuntary. Why do you think there has been such a backlash from the left since Jerry Falwell rose to prominence in the 1980s?
Baptists typically preach that the anti-Christian sentiment among non-believers today is a sign of the end times and part of the apostasy of our culture. I beg to differ. It's a backlash against the effort by evangelicals to impose their religion on the entire country whether people believe it or not.
That's easy to figure out. Complicity is the name of the game. If you are sinning and you get a whole country to agree to be complicit with your sinning by passing laws in agreement with it, then it's no longer just you being in judgment, but the whole country. The spirits involved always look for ways to inflict the most collateral damage. Of course that's because we're in a war.
It's sort of like if you are a student at one of the old time honor based prep schools and you cheat on your test and you tell the whole class you did it, while the teacher steps out of the room a sec. And then you talk the whole class into agreeing to lie about whether or not they know you cheated, in the mistaken belief the teacher won't flunk the whole class for complicity and lying, just because they didn't cheat on their test as well. Peace
This is pretty much the same fear-mongering that has taken place since religion was invented.
Every religion and even many cultures have a built-in propaganda apparatus that says: "Unless you live by OUR rules and worship OUR God, bad bad bad really really bad things will (and are) happening to the whole nation."
Every time there is a natural disaster, an act of terrorism, a national tragedy such as Sandy Hook, or even an economic crisis, there will always be those primitive fanatics who will try to convince people that we are being punished collectively for a bunch of sins. Oh yeah, and it's no coincidence that the "sins" we're being punished for always corrolate precisely with the very things the fanatics hate.
Thus, when there is another *inevitable* (note the emphasis on the word "inevitable" because it is precisely that: inevitable) ... when there is another inevitable natural disaster or national tragedy, the fanatics will haul themselves out of their Montana bunkers to scream about how it's all the fault of allowing gay marriage, it's because we took prayer out of the public schools, it's because of the feminists, the atheists, the intellectuals, or even the ACLU.
And I assume that everyone -- and I do mean everyone -- is supposed to run to the nearest fundamentalist/evangelical church, praise whatever god is worshiped there, and realize that if we all stopped sinning, there would be no more earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, or wildfires. Even better, if we all kissed the floor with our noses genuflecting to these wicked gods, international terrorism would stop cold and all the psychos in America who can now buy a gun (thanks, Trump, for that) will give up their plans to shoot up another elementary school and instead become normal, productive, and peaceful citizens.
Yeah! That's how it's supposed to work .... I guess .... somehow.
Except we all know that disasters are inevitable and will always be inevitable.
But there's nothing like a good school shooting or big act of terrorism or a destructive natural disaster that can be used by these unscrupulous and deceitful churches to get more butts in their pews.
No, there is no god sending down punishments because your religion didn't get its own way in court.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
