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If you took apart a watch and dumped all the pieces out onto a table then as quickly as you could, pushed all the pieces into a box and shuffled them, then dumped them onto the table....do you think you could make a fully functioning complete Watch again doing it 10 sextillion times ?
The assertion that our cosmos, solar system, earth, dna, etc.. including 150 plus exceedingly razor edge precise Physics Constants of our cosmos working in unison (some to the 150th decimal point in critical tolerance) could first pop into existence then proceed to provide a very specific goal, because we have time, matter, and chance on our side....is the greatest example of ludicrous blind faith ever postulated .
The over-used watch story, as an attempt to bolster the claim that the universe must've had an infinite intelligent creator, that there had to be aa reason, has no bearing whatsoever on the origin and evolution of the universe itself. It is not a reasonable comparison. We are simply not able to make any absolute claims about conditions, if any, preexisted the Big Bang. What is known is that there are a number of plausible possibilities, but exactly why it happened in the first place is unknown.
What is reasonable is that if the universe had a beginning, then prior to that beginning, there was no space, no time, no matter, no universe. There was nothing. It's not unreasonable to say that it's possible for a universe to come into existence from nothing, as hard as that is to imagine.
Here are a couple of vids that might shed some light on how that might be possible. In effect, our quest to find a reason for everything, is related to our own human nature.
With regard to the flimsy 'broken watch' argument, we do know more about how things came together following the spark of the Big Bang, how stuff like stars, planets and galaxies formed, even though there is still much that remains unknown.
Well plenty of theists believe in evolution, as do I. God crerated the laws of the universe as well as matter. So I guess you should save your post when you come across a Young Eath Creationist. Me? You're preaching to the choir.
Evolution does not refute the Bible as some may think, but it only draws into question two chapters of one of 66 books. When one understands the purpose of the creation story, it becomes a big "so what". The Bible is a collection of books. Not one book. Does evolution refute Jesus?
But with that said, most of your post was good.
Your conclusion is where I disagree. IMO science is making God bigger as we discover more and more of the complexity of the universe. It becomes less likely that this world came about by chance. Why does DNA contain a code? Codes do not come about by random chance.
Theists believe in theistic evolution which is an oxymoron and a pseudoscience.
Your reply is evidence that you are still in the camp of irreducible complexity. You look at DNA and see a designer, scientists don't.
Irreducible complexity (IC) is an argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally occurring, chance mutations.[1] The argument is central to intelligent design, and is rejected by the scientific community at large,[2] which overwhelmingly regards intelligent design as pseudoscience.[3] Irreducible complexity is one of two main arguments used by intelligent design proponents, the other being specified complexity.[4]
Biochemistry professor Michael Behe, the originator of the term irreducible complexity, defines an irreducibly complex system as one "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning".[5] Evolutionary biologists have shown that such systems can evolve,[6] and that Behe's examples constitute an argument from ignorance.[7] In the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, Behe gave testimony on the subject of irreducible complexity. The court found that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."[2]
Ergo, you are still a creationist aka Intelligent Design.
The mechanisms of evolution is undeniable. Piggy backing theism on real science (theistic evolution) does not change the real science of evolution. It is only in the unscientific mind of the theist that a creator is necessary.
As for the bible being refuted, it is as the whole concept of original sin and a jesus fix-me-up later then becomes moot. (first Adam - second Adam) Making certain concepts allegorical, simply proves the atheist standpoint that religion and their god(s) are man made and "evolve" as science corrects more and more nonsense posited by the ancient bible writers.
To think that 2000+ years ago, folk had a better grasp on the reality of our existence is ignominious to say the least.
You're making the mistake of assuming that if x doesn't currently have an explanation, then the explanation must be god. This is a logical fallacy, however. It's analogous to saying that a ghost pushed the apple off the table because you can't think of an explanation. The fact that there currently isn't an explanation for how the universe came into existence doesn't mean god is the explanation.
Oh dear! Not 'the watch' again! Theists don't have a clue. I know where I'd like to shove their watch.
05-17-2012, 01:09 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
How come we have all this razor edge teleology, complexity , great order, harmonious solar system , beauty, the highly personal, logic, extreme wonders in the animal kingdom such as the Monarch Butterflys migrational habits, direct informational messages in the DNA molecule as a blueprint for building, and some 60 independent anatomical systems to the Human Body all working in unison , et al, ad infinitum....when we are expected to believe it is all by chance, for no ultimate purpose, and derived from Nothing ?
In consideration of this, doesnt an atheistic worldview require a ton of blind faith that it all 'just happened' without a shred of guided direction ?
Because physics and chemistry are not directionless. Given the right environment, which most all of the universe is not, physics and chemistry will direct itself in the path of least resistence and most efficient paths - some of these paths will have the potential to go futher and further in the direction of order/stability/homeostasis. Give it billions of years and what we already know it is not a far flung leap of faith to fill in the unknowns with the same principles. The circle of God's necessity is shrinking everyday.
What do you have but your evidence-free, metaphysical and linguistic gymnastics firmly planted in ignorance. Information is constrained by and equated with its physical and geometric properties and as such is limited in the direction that it can proceed in - it cannot go in any direction - but it can go in a direction given its present properties. Under certain conditions chemistry arises and from there all manner of potential is brought forth - even ignorance itself.
In consideration of this, doesnt an atheistic worldview require a ton of blind faith that it all 'just happened' without a shred of guided direction ?
Nope, the knowledge that there are many laws of physics, and other sciences that exist, even without full understanding of them is all that is required.
If your hypothesis were correct then why are 93% of the Members of Academy of Sciences not believe in a god, the answer is simple; knowledge.
You choose to believe a book written by goat herders when it was believe the world was flat, and refuse to even investigate or listed to anyone smarter than goat herders that have been dead for thousand of years.
The smarter people choose to listen to those immersed in the science and always challenging what is know to validate it, and change if they prove their initial conclusion were in error.
Steadfastly stick with the goat herders ignorance can easily be described simply as "Stuck on Stupid"
Perhaps the next time you are ill, you demand that you doctor treat you with the knowledge of long dead goat herders and refuse any modern medicine or procedures. You clearly choose to embrace modern science in most things, and cling with insane desperation to selected bronze age ignorance. What's up with that
As I think about it seems illogical that said molecules acted without guidance or intellegence to form, of all things the solar system and human life.
Why do things work?
The atheist may say "I don't know". If you don't know then why be so sure that it wasn't God. The spiritual is not detectable by the material.
The atheist worldview is based on opinion, speculation and hypothesis. There is no evidence to support their worldview.
What are your views on stellar evolution, the formation of planets, abiogenesis and the evolution of life (including macroevolution and common descent)?
Are all of these things based merely on opinion, speculation and hypothesis?
Oh dear! Not 'the watch' again! Theists don't have a clue. I know where I'd like to shove their watch.
People bring up that and the mouse trap like it is some new clever stumper of an argument that they have just conceived of. Next we will be seeing the moon-dust argument.
People bring up that and the mouse trap like it is some new clever stumper of an argument that they have just conceived of. Next we will be seeing the moon-dust argument.
That or the 747 in a junkyard!!!
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Theists don't have a clue. I know where I'd like to shove their watch. 
