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I am saying that one of the formulas I used to prove the existance of Christ, was the writings of 10 historians, you rebutted with myths. If you use that same formula and produce 10 historians who verify the existance of ANY mythical characther, I will comply to your premiss.
Peace.
You still don't get it do you. The examples showed that fiction writing can and often does include fact.
Would you like me to rebut you claims re 'historians that mentioned Jesus' with facts? Not that I haven't done so before...and with you. You obviously didn't take any notice then, would you do so now?
You still don't get it do you. The examples showed that fiction writing can and often does include fact.
Would you like me to rebut you claims re 'historians that mentioned Jesus' with facts? Not that I haven't done so before...and with you. You obviously didn't take any notice then, would you do so now?
Tertullian, Origen, Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, Celsus, Sextus Julius Africanus and Tacitus all verified that Jesus lived. I would like you to prove your premiss by listing 10 historians who verify any of your mythical characthers that you are trying to use to rebutt the historical fact of Christ life.
The ball is in his court, not mine. Obviously, for thousands of years, man has sought out God. Read books, joined religions, prayed, joined groups, you name it. No answer.
There are a lot of religions besides the Judeo-based ones, too.
Why would God allow all this confusion, all these religions, every one of them claiming to be correct?
Interesting that you have no evidence for Yahweh and you have no evidence for Zeus....but Zeus automatically becomes a fictional character whilst Yahweh doesn't. Why is that?
My effort to use myths is to point out to you that mythology did and still does use real people, real places and real events to make a good story.
Yes, I always thought it was interesting that Roman, Greek, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Nordic, and other gods were kicked to the mythology waste bin and only Yahweh still plunders on.
The ball is in his court, not mine. Obviously, for thousands of years, man has sought out God. Read books, joined religions, prayed, joined groups, you name it. No answer.
There are a lot of religions besides the Judeo-based ones, too.
Why would God allow all this confusion, all these religions, every one of them claiming to be correct?
So you didn't prove God. It was subjective.
I proved him to myself, and I am not interested in proving him to others. I too believe the ball is in Gods court, THATS WHY I believe in the Salvation of all of created humanity, because its a " God thing", not a human effort.
Why would God allow confusion, I am not rightly sure, I just don't know. But it has something to do with our creation, development, and our learning. I just can't quite get my understanding hand on it. Hes proved one thing to me though, if he holds back and does not intervene, humanity will eventually destroy itself. If there is no God, we are surely doomed, by our own hands. Oh it may take some time, but I think we would. The way politics and terrorism are mixing, the way nations are so careless with their " Little fights with each other", I think we would do it.
I have a bit of Agnosticism in me myself, because its a lot I just don't know.
Yes, I always thought it was interesting that Roman, Greek, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Nordic, and other gods were kicked to the mythology waste bin and only Yahweh still plunders on.
Give me 10 historians who verified any of the above, and I think you would have a point. I always thought it interesting that certain Atheist readily dismiss the 10 I listed and elect to use mythical characthers in an attempt to defend their plastic premiss.
Provide the passage. He was also a 'Church father' and a Christian so he would say that wouldn't he?
Quote:
Origen,
Provide the passage. He was also a 'Church father' and a Christian so he would say that wouldn't he? Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
Quote:
Josephus,
Josephus did not mention Jesus. The passage in 'Antiquities' is accepted as a later Christian forgery by scholars on both sides of the debate. How do we know this? Well .....
1. The passage refers to Jesus as 'Messiah' and Josephus was a Jew who would not have believed that Jesus was the 'Messiah'.
2. The passage was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed 'Antiquities'. If the passage had been there, he would have jumped on it like a starving dog on a piece of meat.... because his main job was to scour the works of secular historians looking for evidence of Jesus.
3. There are copies of Antiquities in the 8th century that did not have the passage.
4. (Most damning of all) The passage did not appear in 'Antiquities' until 300 years after Josephus had died.
Quote:
Suetonius,
Suetonius refers to a "Chrestus" who stirred the Jews to trouble in Rome during Claudius' time. "Chrestus" is a Greek name (from "useful"), and is also a mystic name for an initiate, it is not the same as "Christos". Also, this 'Chrestus' was apparently active in Rome but your Jesus never was in Rome so this passage is not evidence for Jesus, it's nothing to do with Jesus.
Quote:
Thallus,
There are NONE of Thallus' works extant. What we DO have is a 9th century reference by George Syncellus who quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, who, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion, wrote: "Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse". There is NO evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events at all, as there WAS an eclipse in 29. This suggests he merely referred to a known eclipse, but that LATER Christians mis-interpreted his comment to mean their darkness.
Quote:
Pliny the Younger,
Pliny referred to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events. Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus ...just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
Quote:
Lucian
Lucian does NOT even mention any Jesus or Christ by name. Lucian is no evidence for a historical Jesus, merely late 2nd century lampooning of Christians.
Quote:
Celsus,
"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"
--Celsus
Quote:
Sextus Julius Africanus
All he mentioned was an eclipse which Christians, starved of evidence for their man-god, jumped on and claimed that he was referring to the alleged darkness during the crucifixion. He made no mention of any Jesus.
Quote:
Tacitus
Another suspected Christian forgery I'm afrai. Tacitus was an Roman Imperial Historian yet in the passage alleged to mention Jesus, he calls Pilate a "procurator". The fact is that Pilate never held the title of 'procurator'. Pilate's title was 'Prefect' and Tacitus, being a Roman Imperial historian would have known that and would not have referred to Pilate by an incorrect title. Also, Tacitus would have been working from Roman records yet the passage refers to Jesus as "Christ". Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar) so this 'evidence' is, at best, nothing but a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time. It is not evidence for your Jesus, it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.
What effect is intended in quoting these verses? Is it to "prove" something to those who disagree with your stance or to gratify yourself by trying to accomplish a " so there" moment?
Proof of God is the creation itself. We're all held accountable for judgement based on this fact alone. We all know God exists. Some suppress this while others misrepresent who the creator is to justify their actions. In the end truth, absolute independent of opinion. All that don't accept our creators provision for redemption through the appointed Messiah Jesus (350+ prophecies fulfilled) will have to pay for our own transgression. We can't plead ignorance.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 KJV
"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." John 15:22 KJV
"11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 2:11-15 KJV
The cloak for our transgression is in Jesus the messiah. We all must go through him (John 14:6 KJV) to avoid the "Great White Throne" judgement. Our book of life is read back and judged according to the scriptures. We all have our day in court - even those that are covered by the blood of the messiah. The difference is all that are saved by the blood of the lamb will be saved from the second death. The second death is eternal.
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:43-45 KJV
Our enemy is our pride.
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18 KJV
We have a young earth - evolution is a lie from the pit of hell.
They are the creator's message to us.We were created to be with God, but we are separte before his perfection with our transgression. We are a cursed people in a cursed creation, but this shall all come to pass.
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