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Hamas gets their weapons thru the tunnels from Iran, via Hezbollah.
They have done that for decades. Some are smuggled in from Egypt from the Parent organization of Hamas - the Muslim Brotherhood.
th.
If they have armed themselves as you state, why is the death toll of Palestinians (13000 children) rising whereas Isreali civilian death toll, besides the 1200 that were attacked and now held hostage, is well, 0?
As the comments posted in this thread continue to be utterly one-sided in terms of perspective and with respect to what happened on October 7 in the context of this many decades long conflict, it would seem that there is no manner of balanced discussion possible here, but a few things have to be obvious to just about anyone who can think about this subject in an objective fashion...
First, the outcry on the part of world leaders, middle east experts, regular citizens and protesters around the world have good reason to object to Israeli policy that has resulted in the death of far too many innocent people long by now. No intelligent human being can sweep all those people under the rug of antisemitism. No one with half a brain can label them pro-Hamas. The great majority are not antisemites. Please. A good many are even Jewish people.
Secondly, though the comparison of Hamas using human shields in Gaza is not the same as a gang holding hostages in a bank robbery, the issue remains. What value is put on innocent people who are used by the enemy for protection one way or another? It's callous and small-minded if not inhumane to write them off as simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and expendable. Many who comment that way in this thread are obviously arm-chair supporters of anything Israel does and who obviously have no personal concerns along these lines whatsoever. No friends or family there in Gaza who they care about in the least. Of course innocents are killed in war. Yes of course, but there are many levels of retaliation and loss of innocent life, and indiscriminate killing of innocents is not considered the "American way." Not by most reasonable Americans anyway.
Again no comment either about how Netanyahu claims Israel will go it alone when we all know the United States is at his back. Netanyahu is like the little kid spouting off to everyone while his big brother stands behind him with a bat. Acting as if he's all grown up and able to take on all comers who would defy him. As many a Jewish critic is also making the effort to make clear, Netanyahu is making matters worse for Israel and the Jewish people as he further alienates his allies and loses their support as well as their patience.
Finally, perhaps the biggest and most justified criticism of all is Israel's lack of any sensible end-game that will lead to any sort of lasting peace. Instead, Israeli policy, in the name of strict self-interest, is forever sowing the seeds of conflict and violence into the foreseeable future. In this latest attempt to respond to what Hamas did on October 7 what can be expected than yet another attack like October 7 from just about anywhere in the middle east where criticism of Israeli policy is growing by the day. Policy that is arguably out of self-interest and/or self-preservation, but that argument doesn't pass the "really?" test.
Why October 7?
On the morning of October 7, the Palestinian group Hamas launched one of the biggest surprise attacks on Israel, in which it fired a barrage of rockets from the Gaza Strip and the security barriers were breached by the gunmen. The attack was launched on Israel during the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah.
However, the date chosen for one of the bloodiest attacks, was just a day after the Yom Kippur War was launched, which started 50 years ago on October 6, with an aim to recapture the territory taken by Israel during a brief conflict in 1967.
I am well aware of Israel's complete withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. It is also well known that since Hamas took control of Gaza (after winning a free election there) that over the years Hamas has used Gaza as a place to launch periodically rockets against innocent Israeli civilians (mainly in Southern Israel) over the years. What happened on October 7th was an escalation of Hamas' goal to wipe Israel off the map and due to the heavy casualty rate of Israelis as a result of the sudden attack and massacre as well as taking of Israeli hostages, Israel had to react in a much broader war to remove this Hamas threat (so this situation won't happen again).
Which is basically what I said, and I totally agree.
If they have armed themselves as you state, why is the death toll of Palestinians (13000 children) rising whereas Israeli civilian death toll, besides the 1200 that were attacked and now held hostage, is well, 0?
Hamas weren't launching rockets weekly into Israel prior to Oct 7th with pillows.
The ground skirmishes we are seeing are not Hamas throwing tomatoes. They are armed. Iran supplies them and probably other smugglers.
They are crafty too, using old Israeli munitions they scavenge. They use their people's sugar and fertilizer to make bombs. Rip up their irrigation systems to make launch tubes.
And the reason the Israeli death toll( of civilians) is near zero is because IDF( who lost near 300 soldiers so far) took the fight to the enemy as it should.
There are many arguments to be had but Hamas being armed or not shouldn't be one of them, imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
First, the outcry on the part of world leaders, middle east experts, regular citizens and protesters around the world have good reason to object to Israeli policy that has resulted in the death of far too many innocent people long by now.
Way more civilians, which includes Palestinians, were killed during the Syrian war. And our college campuses didn't erupt like we see now.
The UN has a right to be opposed. They are there so members can say their piece. But they cannot protect Israel when it comes down to it.
What is the UN and ICC really gonna do to Hamas? Arrest them? Send strongly worded emails? Sanction them more than Israel has already?! Punish Iran for funding them and Hezbollah or call for the arrest of Hamas in Qatar? lol.
This war Has to happen. And if anyone has a better way to retaliate against Hamas in Gaza then let's hear it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Of course innocents are killed in war. Yes of course, but there are many levels of retaliation and loss of innocent life, and indiscriminate killing of innocents is not considered the "American way." Not by most reasonable Americans anyway. .
the 'level' of retaliation is definitely being considered. The warnings, the leaflets, the evacuations. What other war do they actually do that?
Is it to our liking? Apparently not, but it is miles more than the language of battle typical in that region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Netanyahu is like the little kid spouting off to everyone while his big brother stands behind him with a bat. .
Yes, I can certainly see how that looks. And it Should look that way in regards to dismantling Hamas. Since the 'little brother' has been warred upon since birth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Finally, perhaps the biggest and most justified criticism of all is Israel's lack of any sensible end-game that will lead to any sort of lasting peace. In this latest attempt to respond to what Hamas did on October 7 what can be expected than yet another attack like October 7 from just about anywhere in the middle east .
The 'Middle East" has been harrying Israel as we see now since 1948. I don't think the Oct 7th retaliation will change that.
We are not at the 'exit strategy' part yet, but I agree, they should start doing something and open talks about it. We should always have been talking about it, tbh, even prior to OCt 7th.
Perhpas normalizing relations was a start, but now we'll never know thanks to Hamas and Iran.
With their large-scale raid on Israel and subsequent withdrawal with hostages, Hamas clearly planned to fight Israel in the Gaza territory, with all the casualties and heavy material losses that would entail. They broke it (the peace); they own it (the consequences).
Hamas weren't launching rockets weekly into Israel prior to Oct 7th with pillows.
The ground skirmishes we are seeing are not Hamas throwing tomatoes. They are armed. Iran supplies them and probably other smugglers.
They are crafty too, using old Israeli munitions they scavenge. They use their people's sugar and fertilizer to make bombs. Rip up their irrigation systems to make launch tubes.
And the reason the Israeli death toll( of civilians) is near zero is because IDF( who lost near 300 soldiers so far) took the fight to the enemy as it should.
There are many arguments to be had but Hamas being armed or not shouldn't be one of them, imho.
It is very difficult to address comments like these that make this whole problem appear as if it began on October 7th, 2023. Anyone who knows this history going back to the beginning has to realize this is an ongoing, never ending tit for tat, and the retaliation(s) are always viewed one way or the other based entirely on who's side one tends to lean. Objectively speaking, regardless who's side one may be on, the ongoing killing of innocent people is too much for either side. Too much for people who are not biased toward one side or the other too, because this is a problem that affects everyone one way or another, and not in a good way.
"Crafty too?"
As if only them? You really don't know this history do you?
Way more civilians, which includes Palestinians, were killed during the Syrian war. And our college campuses didn't erupt like we see now.
The UN has a right to be opposed. They are there so members can say their piece. But they cannot protect Israel when it comes down to it.
What is the UN and ICC really gonna do to Hamas? Arrest them? Send strongly worded emails? Sanction them more than Israel has already?! Punish Iran for funding them and Hezbollah or call for the arrest of Hamas in Qatar? lol.
This war Has to happen. And if anyone has a better way to retaliate against Hamas in Gaza then let's hear it.
When the premise is "this war has to happen," all further reason and logic is also difficult to attempt if not impossible, but not everyone believes any war is inevitable or necessary. Problem here too is that too many people are war-mongers who would rather fight than do what is necessary to establish peace. Peace is what has to happen. More killing doesn't have to happen, but the time to really prevent all this violence from happening for decades now is long past.
Way more civilians, which includes Palestinians, were killed during the Syrian war. And our college campuses didn't erupt like we see now.
The UN has a right to be opposed. They are there so members can say their piece. But they cannot protect Israel when it comes down to it.
What is the UN and ICC really gonna do to Hamas? Arrest them? Send strongly worded emails? Sanction them more than Israel has already?! Punish Iran for funding them and Hezbollah or call for the arrest of Hamas in Qatar? lol.
This war Has to happen. And if anyone has a better way to retaliate against Hamas in Gaza then let's hear it.
What is your conclusion as to why college campuses are erupting like we see now?
the 'level' of retaliation is definitely being considered. The warnings, the leaflets, the evacuations. What other war do they actually do that?
Is it to our liking? Apparently not, but it is miles more than the language of battle typical in that region.
Israel is under tremendous pressure not to be retaliating in a way that doesn't appear disproportionate. Warnings and leaflets is a basic effort in a case where so many innocents are involved like in this case. Israel is considered a better example when it comes to this sort of thing by western standards, but all considered it doesn't seem your standard(s) are very high when it comes to objectively considering all this. Who is responsible for being in that region in the first place? To who's liking?
Again no comment either about how Netanyahu claims Israel will go it alone when we all know the United States is at his back?
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