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Old 04-12-2023, 02:59 PM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,018,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
The problem is that we do not live in a civilized society. If we did we wouldn't need laws at all. People would respond civilly to all their problems.

We humans live in societies with a thin veil of civilization keeping most of us from reacting to our most desperate emotions. But let anything threaten our basic human needs persist for any length of time, shorter than most people realize, and we would be at each others' throats fighting for survival. Why? Because we are animals - animals who are striving to counteract our baser natures.

Because of that whenever there is a breakdown of the human mind or the artifice of human civilization might will always prevail over right. I think Obama said it. "Never bring a knife to a gun fight."

I like the idea of being able to remove everything that could cause harm to our children but it is unrealistic. When I realized guns were a fact of life where we live I sent both my kids to gun safety class so that if they were ever at anyone's house and some kid wanted to show them "something neat" they would understand the basic rules of avoiding an accident and why they exist.

Did that set my mind at ease? A mother's mind is never at ease but I knew I had done something to educate them about the kind of respect potentially dangerous things should instill.

I think education is our best approach to all dangerous possibilities including potentially violent personalities.
There is no way to protect your children if you cannot send them to school and not know if they will RETURN home alive. That is not a society one should live in. Yet we do and feel sad for the women in Iran who have to cover their hair or could be killed. We are no better because we are helpless to do anything and settle for this kind of violence that we dont know when it will strike again. We are terrorized by gun owners and the NRA and our government is unable to protect us.
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Old 04-12-2023, 04:26 PM
 
Location: USA
3,112 posts, read 1,006,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
We are terrorized by gun owners and the NRA and our government is unable to protect us.
What is your solution for this? Can you come up with an idea?
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Old 04-12-2023, 05:22 PM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,018,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farm108 View Post
What is your solution for this? Can you come up with an idea?
Amend the constitution.
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Old 04-12-2023, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,040 posts, read 8,411,860 times
Reputation: 44797
If you truly are terrorized by the thought of your children being shot in school the sensible response is to home school them.

If you truly believe this is not a society anyone should live in you should find a safer one or stay indoors. That would be a rational response to your terror.

But you believe "rationality is overrated." I'd suggest that you've created a terrifying world to live in by your emotional hyperbole. You don't have to live with that level of fear.

Do you know that half of what is counted as gun violence in the U.S. is suicide by gun? That's a lot of gun deaths that could better be handled by better medical end of life care. Nearly all of the rest of gun deaths are drug- and gang-related. And that could also be deal with if our government really wanted to do it. Chicago had some of the strictest gun laws around for years and that didn't do any good. Do you know why?

If you study gun deaths with a realistic point of view the chances of anyone's children being shot in school are low. Better to put your energy into mental health, societal attitudes and irresponsible entertainment which are the causes of gun violence.

The true problem is something is wrong with us socially. There is where the fix will have to happen. But it is not going to be fixed. It will only ebb and flow as it has throughout the history of humans.

When I grew up nearly every farm had a loaded shotgun by the door (There were seven little boys in my husband's family and never an "incident" with that loaded gun.) Every farm kid had a gun rack with a gun in the back of the pickup he drove to school. Most of the boys and many of the girls carried pocket knives with them also. And in all the twelve years I was there not one kid was cut or shot.

If you can answer the question why it didn't happen often then you have the cause of the problem. Hint: it's not because guns are more available.
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Old 04-13-2023, 04:28 AM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,018,630 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
If you truly are terrorized by the thought of your children being shot in school the sensible response is to home school them.

If you truly believe this is not a society anyone should live in you should find a safer one or stay indoors. That would be a rational response to your terror.

But you believe "rationality is overrated." I'd suggest that you've created a terrifying world to live in by your emotional hyperbole. You don't have to live with that level of fear.

Do you know that half of what is counted as gun violence in the U.S. is suicide by gun? That's a lot of gun deaths that could better be handled by better medical end of life care. Nearly all of the rest of gun deaths are drug- and gang-related. And that could also be deal with if our government really wanted to do it. Chicago had some of the strictest gun laws around for years and that didn't do any good. Do you know why?

If you study gun deaths with a realistic point of view the chances of anyone's children being shot in school are low. Better to put your energy into mental health, societal attitudes and irresponsible entertainment which are the causes of gun violence.

The true problem is something is wrong with us socially. There is where the fix will have to happen. But it is not going to be fixed. It will only ebb and flow as it has throughout the history of humans.

When I grew up nearly every farm had a loaded shotgun by the door (There were seven little boys in my husband's family and never an "incident" with that loaded gun.) Every farm kid had a gun rack with a gun in the back of the pickup he drove to school. Most of the boys and many of the girls carried pocket knives with them also. And in all the twelve years I was there not one kid was cut or shot.

If you can answer the question why it didn't happen often then you have the cause of the problem. Hint: it's not because guns are more available.
ok, things to think about. maybe you can think about why don’t other advanced nations have the kind of death rate by gun as US has? why are they able to send their children to school without worrying about their safety? why are the able to provide better health care and not burdened with treating gun shot bodies?
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Old 04-13-2023, 05:34 AM
 
5,213 posts, read 3,011,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There is no way to protect your children if you cannot send them to school and not know if they will RETURN home alive. That is not a society one should live in. Yet we do and feel sad for the women in Iran who have to cover their hair or could be killed. We are no better because we are helpless to do anything and settle for this kind of violence that we dont know when it will strike again. We are terrorized by gun owners and the NRA and our government is unable to protect us.
You mean you are terrorized by criminals. The vast vast vast majority of people who own firearms never use them in any way that would terrorize you. Unless, that is, the mere sight or sound of a firearm terrifies you, in which case I cant help you there.
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Old 04-13-2023, 07:25 AM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,018,630 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
You mean you are terrorized by criminals. The vast vast vast majority of people who own firearms never use them in any way that would terrorize you. Unless, that is, the mere sight or sound of a firearm terrifies you, in which case I cant help you there.
They are men with guns until they become criminals. The father who shot his kid and wife and himself lived in a mansion, great job, nice kid, and with domestic problems. If he had no gun, there would have been no deaths. He could have killed himself by other means but the wife and son did not have to die violent deaths. There would have been no crime.
Contemplate this data.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/h...-from-firearms
Why are our deaths by firearms same as some of the South American countries?
Here is another one, more succinct.
http://https://www.npr.org/sections/...t-of-the-world

You can keep telling your own stories to yourself. The facts that we live with are entirely different. The richest and most powerful country in the world is unable to protect its school children from death by guns. That is a sad and shameful fact.
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Old 04-13-2023, 07:30 AM
 
5,213 posts, read 3,011,830 times
Reputation: 7022
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
They are men with guns until they become criminals. The father who shot his kid and wife and himself lived in a mansion, great job, nice kid, and with domestic problems. If he had no gun, there would have been no deaths. He could have killed himself by other means but the wife and son did not have to die violent deaths. There would have been no crime.
Contemplate this data.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/h...-from-firearms
Why are our deaths by firearms same as some of the South American countries?
Here is another one, more succinct.
http://https://www.npr.org/sections/...t-of-the-world

You can keep telling your own stories to yourself. The facts that we live with are entirely different. The richest and most powerful country in the world is unable to protect its school children from death by guns. That is a sad and shameful fact.
If we are going to by your argument that everyone is a criminal because they are law abiding until they become criminals, then we should use that same argument for everything that can be used to harm or kill everyone. That would include, vehicles, gas, knifes, bats, rocks, sticks, fist, etc.

However, you wont say that because you dont really have a problem with people dying from firearms. You are scared of firearms. That is it.
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Old 04-13-2023, 09:07 AM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,018,630 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
If we are going to by your argument that everyone is a criminal because they are law abiding until they become criminals, then we should use that same argument for everything that can be used to harm or kill everyone. That would include, vehicles, gas, knifes, bats, rocks, sticks, fist, etc.

However, you wont say that because you dont really have a problem with people dying from firearms. You are scared of firearms. That is it.
The bolded is not what I wrote, but you can make up meaningless stuff as you please.

I am absolutely terrified of people who walk around with guns as they are allowed to do in many of the Red States. I don't want to die of gun shot and I don't want to see anyone die of gun shots. It is pitiful that people have to carry guns with them, exposed, in order to feel safe. That does not look very fearless to me.
You are fearful of facts. And so you don't want to address data that is in your face and prefer to live with stories you make up.
But things are changing. Gun owners are changing their minds. The NRA is losing money and supporter. Change takes time but it will change for the better.
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Old 04-13-2023, 09:10 AM
 
5,213 posts, read 3,011,830 times
Reputation: 7022
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
The bolded is not what I wrote, but you can make up meaningless stuff as you please.

I am absolutely terrified of people who walk around with guns as they are allowed to do in many of the Red States. I don't want to die of gun shot and I don't want to see anyone die of gun shots. It is pitiful that people have to carry guns with them, exposed, in order to feel safe. That does not look very fearless to me.
You are fearful of facts. And so you don't want to address data that is in your face and prefer to live with stories you make up.
But things are changing. Gun owners are changing their minds. The NRA is losing money and supporter. Change takes time but it will change for the better.
You did in fact say that. You live in fear of inanimate objects. I am sorry about that. I truly am. However, there is no point in continuing this, you have made up your mind and want to control other people. Have a good day.
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