Avengers: Infinity War (script, overrated, action, watching)

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

A villain who honestly thinks he’s doing the right thing always makes for a better villain, comic book or no. I just wish that some of these movies would raise the obvious question: “Who put you in charge?” Okay, Magneto or Vulture or Thanos, you may have a valid point, but why do you get to be the one to decide who lives and dies? Does your end justify your means? In the end, your argument boils down to, “Might makes right,” which doesn’t hold much water.

And the thing is: Most super heroes’ morality boils down to the same thing. Might makes right. So what separates the heroes from the villains? Why is one set of vigilantes considered heroes while the other are villains?

This is the issue that CIVIL WAR tried to raise but ultimately didn’t. And the Marvel movie-verse still hasn't really answered this.

They did kick that can down the road in this movie when Rhodes refused to arrest Cap and crew.

But the biggest reason I ultimately find Thanos a bit of a bore is that once a character has the power of a god, he or she isn’t very interesting. (Same thing goes for Superman, by the way.)

I don't know why comic writers have a propensity to continue to expand the powers of superheroes. So right now in the comics, Captain (Mary Sue) Marvel is so insanely overpowered that if the movies stick to that same form, all she has to do is snap her fingers and the universe goes right back to where it was. She's been made so powerful that she doesn't even need Infinity Stones.

Which is also why Act 3 of this movie didn’t make much sense to me. Once the Bad Guy could rewrite all of reality at his will, why did he engage in a ten-minute fist-fight with the heroes? And why does a super-advanced interstellar society still use a horde of alien leopards in battle? The answer: Because that’s what comic book movies do. I’d like for a comic book movie to aim a little higher someday.

I was never clear on how extensive the power of the reality stone was. It seemed to be a very local change that needed to be actively maintained by the will of the stone-wielder.

I'd like to find out why the Scarlet Witch couldn't use her Jedi mind trick on any of the bad guys (although that would be a reason why they'd use essentially mindless alien critters against her).

[warhorse78]

Originally Posted by Rocko20

Everyone saw it coming. Bye bye Black Panther fanatics, we hardly knew ya.

This will easily be the highest grossing superhero movie of all time.

Eh, I don't think so. I think part 2 will be, just simply due to the fact people want to see who is going to make it or not. It's the Deathly Hallows part 2 of the MCU.

[warhorse78]

Originally Posted by Rocko20

It's a movie not a TV show. They don't have enough time to give dozens of different characters their own heartfelt scene that makes them human, that's what their individual movie was for. If anything, they didn't make enough standalone movies. Vision and Black Widow should've had their own movie.

I believe Starlord was the scene stealer.

I have to disagree here. He actually annoyed the hell out of me (and I am a pretty big MCU and GOTG fan here). I think Thor and Dr Strange stole the show, and the Thor and Rocket scenes were fantastic. I hope Thor doesn't die, and maybe he can join the GOTG.

He anchored and reignited this Marvel empire so lets give him some props. But yes, he does take up way too much screen time. That screen time should've been split more between captain America and others.

He just looks old and tired from doing these movies for a decade. He even ran out of punchlines.

Marvel is now in a position where they're trying to retire off old characters while introducing new characters and things could get awkward. They simply can't make these movies forever like Jame Bond or Mission Impossible.

Depends though. Some things like the legacies of Captain America and Iron-Man could be passed down. There is already talk of either Bucky or Sam taking up the Captain American suit, and Shuri could take over for Iron-Man.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by warhorse78

I have to disagree here. He actually annoyed the hell out of me (and I am a pretty big MCU and GOTG fan here). I think Thor and Dr Strange stole the show, and the Thor and Rocket scenes were fantastic. I hope Thor doesn't die, and maybe he can join the GOTG.

Yes.

Spoiler

I think Quill could certainly be blamed for screwing up the situation when they nearly had Thanos' gauntlet removed. He could also be blamed for not immediately killing Gamora as he'd promised when he first realized it was necessary. He's pretty much the only one who clearly screwed up instead of merely being beaten in battle.

Depends though. Some things like the legacies of Captain America and Iron-Man could be passed down. There is already talk of either Bucky or Sam taking up the Captain American suit, and Shuri could take over for Iron-Man.

Of course, in the comics, both Bucky and Sam actually have put on the flag suit.

I'd rather Shuri wear that armor than Riri Williams.

[Mike930]

I saw it Friday and thought it was great. Every time I see a marvel movie there are people who leave immediately after the movie and miss/skip the after credit scenes. The theater was packed Friday and for the first time not one person moved when the credits started rolling. Everyone stayed for the last scene.

As someone who read marvel comics as a kid, I was in geek heaven. Marvel has done a great job with these characters. I did have to explain the after credit scene to my wife, who never read comics.

I think the “pre infinity stone” deaths will be permanent and the deaths caused by the stones at the end will all be reversed.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Mike930

I saw it Friday and thought it was great. Every time I see a marvel movie there are people who leave immediately after the movie and miss/skip the after credit scenes. The theater was packed Friday and for the first time not one person moved when the credits started rolling. Everyone stayed for the last scene.

As someone who read marvel comics as a kid, I was in geek heaven. Marvel has done a great job with these characters. I did have to explain the after credit scene to my wife, who never read comics.

Spoiler

I think the “pre infinity stone” deaths will be permanent and the deaths caused by the stones at the end will all be reversed. Gamora and Loki? Toast.

I tend to think the same way, except I'd express it particularly that those slain because of the Soul Stone--

Spoiler

including Gamora

--are in Soul Stone-verse rather than actually dead, and for that reason are retrievable.

[Rocko20]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

A villain who honestly thinks he’s doing the right thing always makes for a better villain, comic book or no. I just wish that some of these movies would raise the obvious question: “Who put you in charge?” Okay, Magneto or Vulture or Thanos, you may have a valid point, but why do you get to be the one to decide who lives and dies? Does your end justify your means? In the end, your argument boils down to, “Might makes right,” which doesn’t hold much water.

They made themselves in charge by virtue of their superpowers. If you had the powers of a God or a Magneto, would you stand idle as the world tears each-other apart? No.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

And the thing is: Most super heroes’ morality boils down to the same thing. Might makes right. So what separates the heroes from the villains? Why is one set of vigilantes considered heroes while the other are villains?

This is the issue that CIVIL WAR tried to raise but ultimately didn’t. And the Marvel movie-verse still hasn't really answered this.

Superheros have to follow a certain formula. The "good guy" formula. We all know that one set of vigilantes is no different or superior than the other. In x-Men, humans want to destroy mutants and some mutants want to destroy humans, neither is wrong or right.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

But the biggest reason I ultimately find Thanos a bit of a bore is that once a character has the power of a god, he or she isn’t very interesting. (Same thing goes for Superman, by the way.)

That's the fault of the writers, besides killing, stealing and destroying, villains need more complexity.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Which is also why Act 3 of this movie didn’t make much sense to me. Once the Bad Guy could rewrite all of reality at his will, why did he engage in a ten-minute fist-fight with the heroes? And why does a super-advanced interstellar society still use a horde of alien leopards in battle? The answer: Because that’s what comic book movies do. I’d like for a comic book movie to aim a little higher someday.

No argument there. Once he has that 3rd or 4th stone, common sense says he would never have to fight anyone ever again. Perhaps he did it for enjoyment. The army of aliens was comic book movie 101 and they should've did something different as well. Especially when Thano's team of villains can easily defeat any of the good guys without the alien horde.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

They did kick that can down the road in this movie when Rhodes refused to arrest Cap and crew.

They used The Godfather tactic: How do you establish sympathy for an organized crime lord? Answer: Show that the legitimate authorities (cops, lawyers, senators) are just as crooked.

So it's pretty obvious that General Ross & Co. are just power-hungry plutocrats. We don't want them to win. But ... what? Back to might makes right. Even The Godfather acknowledged that its moral center was in fact an immoral center. It is essentially the story of a good man's damnation.

Most super heroes are actually vigilantes. Very few writers explore that. The CIVIL WAR comics actually tried and did a halfway decent job. But the movie just didn't have the time.

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I don't know why comic writers have a propensity to continue to expand the powers of superheroes. So right now in the comics, Captain (Mary Sue) Marvel is so insanely overpowered that if the movies stick to that same form, all she has to do is snap her fingers and the universe goes right back to where it was. She's been made so powerful that she doesn't even need Infinity Stones.

I haven't been a regular reader of comics for about ten years, but the power element has always been a big weakness in super heroes. If the only way to defeat the super villain is a superer hero, then it eventually boils down two characters punching each other. And the power creeps upward and upward until eventually your heroes are gods. And that's boring. An invulnerable character cannot be dramatic, because the heart of drama is about being hurt.

I guess that's why I have always preferred characters like Spider-Man and Batman who really could be hurt and often had to succeed not by using their powers but by using their wits.

It's also why I found Avengers: Infinity War ultimately a little trite and unsatisfying. How can one feasibly hurt Thor? The guy rides lightning and can go one-on-one with a star. Doctor Strange is almost the same. And Tony's suit can now seemingly do anything. I kept half-expecting him to start throwing sinks and toilets at Thanos, which materialized right out of his gauntlets --- a "power" he has no bequeathed to Spider-Man.

I know we are essentially watching modern-day mythology, with wars amongst the gods. But even the Greeks knew that their best stories seldom involved the gods as main characters, but as movers and influencers. Their best stories were about vulnerable human beings. Marvel and DC need to take that lesson to heart.

[Rocko20]

Originally Posted by warhorse78

I have to disagree here. He actually annoyed the hell out of me (and I am a pretty big MCU and GOTG fan here). I think Thor and Dr Strange stole the show, and the Thor and Rocket scenes were fantastic. I hope Thor doesn't die, and maybe he can join the GOTG.

I'm ok with Starlord's annoyance, he's a nice comedy relief. Dr Strange seems a bit too boring but Thor and rocket are fine and can carry their weight.

Originally Posted by warhorse78

Depends though. Some things like the legacies of Captain America and Iron-Man could be passed down. There is already talk of either Bucky or Sam taking up the Captain American suit, and Shuri could take over for Iron-Man.

Sure, but it will be interesting to see how far Marvel can keep this going. They're really going to need to spread their wings and make more "novelty" movies like black Panther which wasn't groundbreaking, just different.

Originally Posted by warhorse78

Eh, I don't think so. I think part 2 will be, just simply due to the fact people want to see who is going to make it or not. It's the Deathly Hallows part 2 of the MCU.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I don't know why comic writers have a propensity to continue to expand the powers of superheroes. So right now in the comics, Captain (Mary Sue) Marvel is so insanely overpowered that if the movies stick to that same form, all she has to do is snap her fingers and the universe goes right back to where it was. She's been made so powerful that she doesn't even need Infinity Stones.

Marvel won't make it so corny as to allow that to happen. All we know is Doctor Strange said this was the only outcome/result that would lead to Thanos eventually losing. So Dr Strange, or Antman who can enter different dimensions, or Captian Marvel will likely play a vital role.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Rocko20

They made themselves in charge by virtue of their superpowers. If you had the powers of a God or a Magneto, would you stand idle as the world tears each-other apart?

Who watches the watchers? What do we do if Superman goes bad?

Originally Posted by Rocko20

Superheros have to follow a certain formula. The "good guy" formula. We all know that one set of vigilantes is no different or superior than the other. In x-Men, humans want to destroy mutants and some mutants want to destroy humans, neither is wrong or right.

And that's fine if you don't want to elevate the story about cartoon-fare for kids. Nothing wrong with that. But if the movies want to keep drawing in adults or even (gasp!) make a movie of real quality that will move audiences and stick in their minds for the rest of their lives, then they need to aim higher.

One of the reasons STAR WARS became such a cultural phenomenon is that it got the fun, but it also added some real depth for its genre. When I was a kid and heard, "No, Luke. I am your father." That was some world-shaking stuff for my brain. And then when Luke realized the only way to win was to sacrifice himself ... even for a "kids movie" that is very profound, moving stuff that most of the super hero flicks aren't even trying. They're settling for Good Guy Punch Bad Guy Till Bad Guy Fall Down.