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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that all suburban schools are white and upper-class (at least I certainly didn't, and suggested quite the opposite, really), and that's exactly why I encouraged her to look at a school like South, not Southwest (and certainly not a school like Rosemount, Edina, Wayzata, etc.) if she wants extremely strong academics AND increased diversity.
I would, once again, strongly suggest that the OP not listen to those who insist on all "inner city" schools are like X, while all "suburban" schools are like Y. The reality here in the Twin Cities is that some urban schools are far, far "better" (meaning better test scores, better graduation rates, more course offerings, more extracurricular activities, etc.) than some suburban schools. There's incredible variety within the urban districts, but I'd say there is actually even more variety when it comes to suburban schools. It's most definitely not one size fits all. Some of the best schools are in the 'burbs; so are some of the worst (with the caveat that, of course, that once you hit a certain level of basic quality and offerings, what's "best" is going to vary by individual student). Some of the most diverse schools are in the 'burbs; so are some of the least. I still think, however, that for the best fit for what OP wants: proximity to Minneapolis (ETA: maybe I'm wrong about this; I see her title says "Minneapolis metro, but that coupled with reference to "boonies" makes me think they're using either Minneapolis or St. Paul as their measuring stick), unique housing, top academics AND a more diverse environment, the best bet is likely going to be within one of the core cities, although it's possible that they'll find what they're looking for elsewhere. Given their dislike of cookie cutter communities and preference to avoid the "boonies", however, I think the odds are highly UNLIKELY they'll be happy in District 196. (that's not an insult to the District 196 communities -- the very reasons I think those areas won't appeal to the OP are the same reasons why it's such a great fit for plenty of other people, and, of course, for anyone working out that direction who prefers more suburban living or newer construction, that area could be perfect. I don't think it's the right fit for everyone, though, and it doesn't sound like a match for the OP.)
And by "diversity," I think it's tough for a school that is, say, greater than 80% white and almost entirely middle to upper-class to claim much diversity. Same thing could be said of a school that was 90% black and poor, for that matter. Lack of diversity is lack of diversity however you cut it. On the other hand, a school like South is diverse however you measure it: 52% white, 26% black, 8% hispanic, 8% American Indian, 7% Asian, and 38% qualified for free or reduced lunches. That means it's extremely diverse both ethnically and economically (and FWIW, some of the richest kids in Minneapolis attend South, as well as some of the poorest). Add in their reputation for academics, and it sounds like potentially exactly the kind of place the OP is seeking. She'd certainly not be sacrificing educational or extracurricular activities for diversity, and, vice-versa, wouldn't be sacrificing diversity (of all types) for academics. It's the full package.
And I think OP would most definitely consider some parts of the Twin Cities "the boonies." Of course she'll have to define that for us herself, but given just how DISTANT some suburbs are, I think they solidly, at least for someone like the OP (based on her original post), are boonies-territory. Or, if she doesn't consider a long commute to the amenities of the core cities to be an issue, then there are other suburban districts besides District 196 that would probably still be a better fit for her wish list.
In any case, to the OP, there's no reason to move to the south suburbs unless you prefer it out there. You'll find plenty of equally good, or even better, schools in other neighborhoods that better meet your other requirements. Don't let the District 196 PR people convince you otherwise. The Twin Cities is lucky to have many good schools in a wide variety of settings, so no need to settle for new construction in an outer suburb unless that's what you're looking for, in which case it's great to have that option available, too.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 04-12-2012 at 08:21 AM..
SW high is a good school and worth the time to go visit. You might also want to look at a few other urban schools like Washburn (as well as suburban schools that seem to have potential). It should be clear at that point if you are going to see culture shock or not. I lived a few blocks away from SW for many years and I would say it seemed a lot more like Edina than some of the other Minneapolis Schools. The area itself really seems to match up with what you described you would like. Pretty sure you could also find something you like going away from the city to some of the burbs that are relatively close to the core. Hopkins, Minnetonka ....
As you travel further out you will see a lot of burbs that have new construction, newer infrastructure and all that. The school districts tend to be smaller and they don't have the burden of schools like Minneapolis North and Henry pulling down stats.
Probably best to look at individual school vs. district wide stats in my opinion. Some people can't do that. Go out and visit some schools before making a final decision. Sometimes what we think we want turns out to be a bit different than what we really want. best of luck.
The district I live in is quite good, but I am not going to yank your chain and say it is an easy commute or incredibly diverse.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that all suburban schools are white and upper-class (at least I certainly didn't, and suggested quite the opposite, really), and that's exactly why I encouraged her to look at a school like South, not Southwest (and certainly not a school like Rosemount, Edina, Wayzata, etc.) if she wants extremely strong academics AND increased diversity.
I would, once again, strongly suggest that the OP not listen to those who insist on all "inner city" schools are like X, while all "suburban" schools are like Y. The reality here in the Twin Cities is that some urban schools are far, far "better" (meaning better test scores, better graduation rates, more course offerings, more extracurricular activities, etc.) than some suburban schools. There's incredible variety within the urban districts, but I'd say there is actually even more variety when it comes to suburban schools. It's most definitely not one size fits all. Some of the best schools are in the 'burbs; so are some of the worst (with the caveat that, of course, that once you hit a certain level of basic quality and offerings, what's "best" is going to vary by individual student). Some of the most diverse schools are in the 'burbs; so are some of the least. I still think, however, that for the best fit for what OP wants: proximity to Minneapolis (ETA: maybe I'm wrong about this; I see her title says "Minneapolis metro, but that coupled with reference to "boonies" makes me think they're using either Minneapolis or St. Paul as their measuring stick), unique housing, top academics AND a more diverse environment, the best bet is likely going to be within one of the core cities, although it's possible that they'll find what they're looking for elsewhere. Given their dislike of cookie cutter communities and preference to avoid the "boonies", however, I think the odds are highly UNLIKELY they'll be happy in District 196. (that's not an insult to the District 196 communities -- the very reasons I think those areas won't appeal to the OP are the same reasons why it's such a great fit for plenty of other people, and, of course, for anyone working out that direction who prefers more suburban living or newer construction, that area could be perfect. I don't think it's the right fit for everyone, though, and it doesn't sound like a match for the OP.)
And by "diversity," I think it's tough for a school that is, say, greater than 80% white and almost entirely middle to upper-class to claim much diversity. Same thing could be said of a school that was 90% black and poor, for that matter. Lack of diversity is lack of diversity however you cut it. On the other hand, a school like South is diverse however you measure it: 52% white, 26% black, 8% hispanic, 8% American Indian, 7% Asian, and 38% qualified for free or reduced lunches. That means it's extremely diverse both ethnically and economically (and FWIW, some of the richest kids in Minneapolis attend South, as well as some of the poorest). Add in their reputation for academics, and it sounds like potentially exactly the kind of place the OP is seeking. She'd certainly not be sacrificing educational or extracurricular activities for diversity, and, vice-versa, wouldn't be sacrificing diversity (of all types) for academics. It's the full package.
And I think OP would most definitely consider some parts of the Twin Cities "the boonies." Of course she'll have to define that for us herself, but given just how DISTANT some suburbs are, I think they solidly, at least for someone like the OP (based on her original post), are boonies-territory. Or, if she doesn't consider a long commute to the amenities of the core cities to be an issue, then there are other suburban districts besides District 196 that would probably still be a better fit for her wish list.
In any case, to the OP, there's no reason to move to the south suburbs unless you prefer it out there. You'll find plenty of equally good, or even better, schools in other neighborhoods that better meet your other requirements. Don't let the District 196 PR people convince you otherwise. The Twin Cities is lucky to have many good schools in a wide variety of settings, so no need to settle for new construction in an outer suburb unless that's what you're looking for, in which case it's great to have that option available, too.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford63
SW high is a good school and worth the time to go visit. You might also want to look at a few other urban schools like Washburn (as well as suburban schools that seem to have potential). It should be clear at that point if you are going to see culture shock or not. I lived a few blocks away from SW for many years and I would say it seemed a lot more like Edina than some of the other Minneapolis Schools. The area itself really seems to match up with what you described you would like. Pretty sure you could also find something you like going away from the city to some of the burbs that are relatively close to the core. Hopkins, Minnetonka ....
As you travel further out you will see a lot of burbs that have new construction, newer infrastructure and all that. The school districts tend to be smaller and they don't have the burden of schools like Minneapolis North and Henry pulling down stats.
Probably best to look at individual school vs. district wide stats in my opinion. Some people can't do that. Go out and visit some schools before making a final decision. Sometimes what we think we want turns out to be a bit different than what we really want. best of luck.
The district I live in is quite good, but I am not going to yank your chain and say it is an easy commute or incredibly diverse.
In that case, I'd recommend SW over Edina then, because Edina at least had close to ZERO diversity when I went there (after being in other districts and cities). Maybe Edina has changed some, but I'd bet SW is more like something you'd see in a movie, with black, Asian and Hispanic kids speckled in nicely with whitey.....everyone holding hands and singing Kumbaya of course!
you neglected to bold the part where I said "ALL". BIG difference there. In case I wasn't specific enough, the non-diverse suburban schools I was referring to included Rosemount High School. Rosemount is NOT diverse. Edina is NOT diverse. Even Southwest, which is significantly more diverse than Rosemount, isn't nearly as diverse as South, which is why if OP is looking for more diversity along with academics I suggested South. I also in other posts suggested that there were most likely some suburban schools that would fit the bill for both diversity and academics, as well as being closer in and not out in the boonies. Roseville, maybe? Not sure. In any case, most definitely NOT Rosemount. I don't think anyone could possibly debate that. It's simply NOT. All you have to do is to look at the numbers. It's even whiter than the state average, and Minnesota is NOT known for its diversity (well, maybe there's some kids with Norwegian ancestors and some kids with German ancestors, so that's diversity at work, right?). But hey, if we're just making up statistics (like suggesting that Southwest has a drop-out rate of 40-so percent, or whatever) then no need to worry about real numbers.
So.... to clarify, certainly not all suburban schools are almost entirely middle to upper class and white, but some are, and schools that DO fit that description are not diverse. Urban schools that fit that description are not diverse, either.
There many other suburban schools that ARE diverse, but Rosemount is clearly not one of them. I'm not sure about the other District 196 schools (perhaps some of them are), but since that district covers areas that do not fit the OP's wish list, it's a moot point.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 04-12-2012 at 01:16 PM..
In that case, I'd recommend SW over Edina then, because Edina at least had close to ZERO diversity when I went there (after being in other districts and cities). Maybe Edina has changed some, but I'd bet SW is more like something you'd see in a movie, with black, Asian and Hispanic kids speckled in nicely with whitey.....everyone holding hands and singing Kumbaya of course!
Perhaps a bit jaded perspective, but probably not entirely out of bounds either. No matter what they do, somebody going find faults. If that happens to be signing kumbaya, then things are not so bad. It was a nice area to live for me. Did not attend school there. Sounds like a possible fit for the OP, so I stand by my suggestion to go visit a few schools and see what feels right and what does not.
you neglected to bold the part where I said "ALL". BIG difference there. In case I wasn't specific enough, the non-diverse suburban schools I was referring to included Rosemount High School. Rosemount is NOT diverse. Edina is NOT diverse. Even Southwest, which is significantly more diverse than Rosemount, isn't nearly as diverse as South, which is why if OP is looking for more diversity along with academics I suggested South. I also in other posts suggested that there were most likely some suburban schools that would fit the bill for both diversity and academics, as well as being closer in and not out in the boonies. Roseville, maybe? Not sure. In any case, most definitely NOT Rosemount. I don't think anyone could possibly debate that. It's simply NOT. All you have to do is to look at the numbers. It's even whiter than the state average, and Minnesota is NOT known for its diversity (well, maybe there's some kids with Norwegian ancestors and some kids with German ancestors, so that's diversity at work, right?). But hey, if we're just making up statistics (like suggesting that Southwest has a drop-out rate of 40-so percent, or whatever) then no need to worry about real numbers.
So.... to clarify, certainly not all suburban schools are almost entirely middle to upper class and white, but some are, and schools that DO fit that description are not diverse. Urban schools that fit that description are not diverse, either.
There many other suburban schools that ARE diverse, but Rosemount is clearly not one of them. I'm not sure about the other District 196 schools (perhaps some of them are), but since that district covers areas that do not fit the OP's wish list, it's a moot point.
Well, I guess the "students of color" I see everyday at Rosemount must just have nice tans then....
Again, not suggesting that Rosemount has NO non-white kids, but the school is 87% white. I suppose one could attempt to argue that that counts as "diverse," but when (approximately) 9 out of 10 kids are the same race, that's not what most people would call diverse. That doesn't make it a bad school, and that doesn't mean that there isn't some range of diversity the sea of white students, but it's tough to argue that it is, even by Twin Cities standards, a "diverse" school. It may be lots of other things, but diverse it is not.
ETA: just checked the most recent numbers, and I stand corrected. 84% of the student body, or 1806 students, are white. Still, that's not diverse even by Minnesota standards; it has significantly fewer students of color than the average school. And with such a low percentage of students qualifying for free and reduced lunches, it's not economically diverse, either.
But again, since the area doesn't match any of the OP's wish list items, it's not particularly relevant, anyway, other than perhaps simply to remind all of us that we come with our own internal biases, and definitions such as "diverse" (or "walkable" or "boonies" or "short commute" or any other subjective term) can vary widely from person to person.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 04-12-2012 at 04:52 PM..
Again, not suggesting that Rosemount has NO non-white kids, but the school is 87% white. I suppose one could attempt to argue that that counts as "diverse," but when (approximately) 9 out of 10 kids are the same race, that's not what most people would call diverse. That doesn't make it a bad school, and that doesn't mean that there isn't some range of diversity the sea of white students, but it's tough to argue that it is, even by Twin Cities standards, a "diverse" school. It may be lots of other things, but diverse it is not.
ETA: just checked the most recent numbers, and I stand corrected. 84% of the student body, or 1806 students, are white. Still, that's not diverse even by Minnesota standards; it has significantly fewer students of color than the average school. And with such a low percentage of students qualifying for free and reduced lunches, it's not economically diverse, either.
But again, since the area doesn't match any of the OP's wish list items, it's not particularly relevant, anyway, other than perhaps simply to remind all of us that we come with our own internal biases, and definitions such as "diverse" (or "walkable" or "boonies" or "short commute" or any other subjective term) can vary widely from person to person.
And if you use the term properly-Rosemount is AS diverse as South....
Also, the OP is moving from Wisconsin...not Alabama....
South has racial, ethnic, and economic diversity. What kind of diversity does Rosemount have that South lacks? Or are you suggesting that as long as there's one kid from a given background that it counts as diverse? If so, I don't think that's how most people define diversity -- as far as the working term goes, I think most people understand diversity, especially when discussing in a school or neighborhood context, to not mean merely that there's one (or a handful) token representative from a given background in the group at large. (and even if we are using the "as long as there's one person it counts as diverse" argument, I'd still bet South is more diverse, especially if you start looking at languages spoken at home, etc.)
Although really, when it comes right down to it, the reason I think someplace like South trumps most local schools on the diversity factor is because they educate such an extremely broad range of kids; it's possible for a rich kid living in a Kenwood mansion to be sitting next to poor first-generation immigrant kid living in Phillips. It's a diversity of experiences not found in many area schools.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 04-12-2012 at 06:10 PM..
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