Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I wasn't suggesting that Southwest was diverse compared to many metro area high schools, but it is certainly more diverse than the before-mentioned Rosemount. And because it does serve a diverse district (even if the student body is itself still majority white and middle- to upper-class), it serves more students who are considered in higher-risk categories than does Edina or Rosemount. I have no idea who the drop out students were, or the "unknown," for that matter, but my guess is that they are mostly not the white middle-class kids who make up the majority of the school. Assuming that they are, say, first-generation lower-income immigrant kids, they may well still value education, but they're also facing a lot of other issues and potential obstacles (and more likely to move around, hence the "unknown" factor).
I'm also not trying to argue that Southwest is the "best" of anything, although I certainly do think it is an excellent school. Maybe it's not the right choice for everyone, but for a college-bound kid looking for a lot of advanced course offerings, it's a solid choice (with more economic and ethnic diversity than neighboring Edina). I personally find things like that to be more relevant, as a parent, than graduation rate. Perhaps if I had a kid who was struggling or was more at-risk for whatever reason I'd be more concerned about other issues. I felt Golfgal was confusing the matter by insinuating that the vast majority of Southwest kids were on the drop-out track, while the school's reputation rested on the backs of only a handful of kids at the top. I don't find that to be true.
I'm reading the "unknown" category to mean that the student didn't graduate and it is not known if they are continuing or not. Perhaps a cause for this is a student not formally dropping out (I'm guessing there's some paperwork involved).
Incidentally, the way graduation rates are calculated seems a bit odd. If a student transfers from your school to another school and then drops out, that student doesn't count as a drop out for the original school at all. So, as a district you could just funnel students in danger of dropping out to alternative/magnet schools (like Wellstone International which has a 6-year graduation rate of 20.3% or Broadway Arts & Tech at 19.4%). Then, the dropout numbers at the "normal" schools look better than they really are. I guess I'd like to see how many students transferred in/out as well.
Also, I don't think I'd trust the Minneapolis School District's numbers over the state numbers. The Minneapolis School District has a lot of reason to portray the numbers in as positive a light as possible (by not counting certain groups of students or whatever they are doing). Note that the Minneapolis School District doesn't tell you what their number actually means.
Further, comparing Southwest to the state as a whole or Rosemount doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to argue that Southwest is one of the best high schools in the state. Try comparing to Edina or Wayzata or Mounds View.
I'm also not sure I buy that Southwest is all that diverse. The school districts of Fridley, Roseville, and Bloomington (and presumably others) all have lower percentages of white students for instance.
I would take "unknown" to mean unknown. I saw that MPS did not give an explanation, at least on that particular page, so unfortunately, we don't know how their calculations differ from those you cited, and are unable to reach any reasoned conclusions. There are clearly different ways to calculate a graduation rate, and I'd suggest that neither of us is qualified to provide a valid, in depth comparison of the alternatives.
My argument was not that Southwest was the one of the best HS in the state, but simply that the 49% graduation rate cited by another poster was not applicable to Southwest HS. I think that together we have demonstrated that whatever the true graduation rate is, and whatever that term means, it's not 49%.
For the record, I wasn't trying to argue that Southwest was "best", either, and do fully believe that the Twin Cities has many excellent schools. But, since OP did ask about city schools, I do think that some of the earlier characterizations of city schools were based purely on stereotypes, not numbers (or personal experience), and think the OP has the right to know that. Overall numbers can be misleading, ESPECIALLY at the district level, although also sometimes even within the school itself. There are also lots of other factors to consider, including some things that you can't quantify. Does the school feel nurturing? What types of classes are offered? Does the school community value sports over academics? (I've heard this accusation made of some local schools) What is the size?
Since the OP also specifically mentioned St. Paul schools, I believe St. Paul also offers many wonderful schools, so there's no reason to be scared out into the outer 'burbs solely for purposes of education. Of course if the OP preferred the lifestyle offered by somewhere like Apple Valley, the kids would have access to good schools out there, too. What they don't need to do is get scared into making a housing decision by the dire warnings of people who have no experience with the schools in question.
Perhaps of interest would be a recent Pioneer Press study showing that, after controlling for socioeconomic factors, middle class kids did about the same (as measured by tests) whether in St. Paul or in suburban districts. (poor kids did better in suburban schools, while ESL kids did better in urban schools.) When it comes right down to, the fact that a parent is coming on here to ask school advice suggests that his or her child is going to do well almost anywhere. They obviously have caring, involved parents who value education, and assuming that the school is capable of providing the student with enough resources and support to excel, the location of the school doesn't matter. There is no need to apply blanket statements to the Twin Cities and its schools. Good schools can be found all over.
Let's just make sure the OP knows where you're coming from. Unless I'm wrong, you've never been to Southwest, don't know any Southwest students, live on the other side of the metro area, and have a consistent habit of spewing misinformation about this particular school. Can't know why, but guess that it might be a bit of school competitiveness, given that Southwest gets a lot of press for being one of the top public schools in the state, while most people have never heard of, say, Rosemount High School? (which I'm sure is also an excellent school. I think it's fully possible for a metro area to have MULTIPLE good schools!)
I have personal experience with Southwest. I know current teachers and current students, and was (once upon a time) a Southwest student myself. It's far more than a "handful" who are doing well -- by any metric. There's simply no logical way anyone can realistically suggest that a student attending Southwest will not have access to a high-quality education and an intellectually stimulating, academically supportive environment, complete with a vast array of advanced academic courses (including access to the IB program, which is, I think, far superior to AP, although there are also AP courses available).
I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Southwest is a poor school. That said, it's certainly not the ONLY excellent school in the metro area, and the OP will have lots of great choices. But, given that she has no interest in subdivisions in the boonies, obviously somewhere like District 196 is NOT going to be a good choice for her family, while somewhere like, say, Southwest Minneapolis, more appropriately fits the bill. I'm sure there are equally good schools in or around St. Paul, too, but I'm not as familiar with that area.
As far as that stats above, I'd like to know the source of the data.
Let's just say you are wrong about each and every assumption, but, whatever....
As for diversity, a higher percentage of black students does not mean a school is more diverse. Having representations from many ethnic groups defines diversity. The 196 schools have representation from as many ethnic groups as Southwest has. You can paint that picture anyway you want however.
Considering you have actually never been to my town, ever, how would you know what is here or what is not? We are far from being in the boonies, contrary to your insular thinking.
I'm not suggesting that Southwest is diverse in terms of the metro area, but it's significantly more diverse than Rosemount. If looking for a truly diverse school with strong academic opportunities, however, there are other options like Henry, etc. (and probably some of the St. Paul schools or perhaps some of the northern suburb schools, although I am not familiar with their programs)
My remark about the boonies was in reference to the OP's original question. Rosemount is an outer suburb. It is, in context to Minneapolis, "the boonies." That doesn't mean it doesn't have stuff of its own going on, but you ARE a long distance away from the city, and I understood the OP to mean that she didn't want to live somewhere that far away from the core central action. It was not intended to be a slur against Rosemount, and of course the distance from the urban core is exactly what has drawn many people to live there. It is a great choice for some people, but it does not sound in any shape or form what the OP wants, and there's no reason she can't find equally good schools in any number of more appropriate neighborhoods, meaning appropriate to HER, not to you. One size doesn't fit all and all that.
30 miles is not a "long distance"-a bit less than that actually.....there are some people here that think, for whatever reason, we are 60 miles away, just not so. We have everything we need within 5-10 miles of our house, how is that the boonies? The boonies is if you have to drive an hour to fill up your car or buy a gallon of milk. Since we can walk to all of that, just not what your perception is, sorry....
Wow, thank you all for your comments! I certainly have my work cut out for me. And I am terrible at research, eek. Speaking of, if someone could link me to a website containing the statistical data of incomes and race percentages as broken down by district and school, that would be great.
I do tend to believe that the biggest indicator of a student's success has more to do with what is happening at home VS what is happening in the school. That being said, I also know that there is a direct correlation between crime and poverty. As of now, we are living in a predominantly white upper middle class community. But going forward in a new community, I want to expose my kids to a little more diversity without throwing them into culture shock. Where they are now, although it is a very nice school, it isn’t giving them a realistic representation of our world. Ideally, i would like to find a place that gives them the resources to become book smart, but the environment to make them street savvy. I think both things are important. However, as a parent, I am a bit apprehensive about the safety of these environments. I apologize for stereotyping but the media portrayal of urban schools is like, kids smoking in class, gangs, fighting, drugs, pregnant teenagers all over the place... I'm sure this is a gross exaggeration, but what do i really know? Nothing. Hence why I am asking.
U_U brings up a good point in mentioning that city schools have advanced curriculum options to offer. And considering that a greater portion of the school populous is in the "at-risk" category, I'm willing to bet there are additional funds going into their budget as well. (all speculation, i know nothing) But if it is in fact true, then I consider that a big advantage over suburban schools.
The things I take into the most consideration are:
1. Safety. Which I do think can be somewhat determined by socioeconomic background
2. Opportunity. Advanced curriculum, music and arts programs, sports, college prep programs etc etc. The more of these things available the better.
3. Graduation rates. Also an important factor because it represents the level of school morale.
Also, in Wisconsin we have open enrollment. Meaning that if you are not satisfied with your neighborhood school you can transfer your child out. I am wondering if Minnesota has a similar program, or if you are bound to the school your kid is assigned to? And also what about transportation? Is that the parent’s responsibility or is there bussing available?
Again, thank you all for the comments! I so appreciate having a “jumping off” point in my quest for finding the perfect school..
For what it's worth, your vision is definitely NOT what you find at Southwest.... BUT, Southwest is also mostly middle- to upper-class school (albeit one with 25% of its student body qualified for free and reduced lunches, so not entirely well-to-do), and is a good example of why you can't go by "suburban" versus "urban" schools. Southwest is more stereotypically "suburban" than some of the suburban schools, if by "suburban" one means majority white, middle to upper-class, and lots of highly-educated parents, but since it is in the city (and draws kids from beyond just the wealthier SW area) it's more diverse, socioeconomically and ethnically, than some of the neighboring suburban schools. Just like you'll find some local suburban schools that are struggling with some of the more traditionally inner-city "urban" problems that come along with concentrated poverty, etc. In other words, don't let city/suburb lines mislead you. (although for what it's worth, it's my perception -- and my friends back this up through personal experience, although I realize that's not exactly scientific evidence -- I think you'll encounter far more problems with heavy drinking and drugs in some of the suburban schools, particularly the wealthiest ones, than you do in the city or more middle-class suburban schools)
Greatschools.com lets you look up scores by school, and see how they break down by group. The link posted earlier (the one where everyone was debating graduation rates) has lots of detailed information, too.
Yes, Minnesota also has open enrollment, although not all schools have room to take new students. It's a nice backup option to have, however. In most cases parents (or students) are responsible for transportation.
I'm sure there are many good options for you across the metro area (and I would give St. Paul close consideration), but for Minneapolis you may want to look into South High School; it's a more diverse than Southwest, a more truly "urban" school, yet with all the bells and whistles and academic programs for serious students. I know people who have been very happy with the Seward Montessori (elementary and junior high) to South track. South's Liberal Arts program has a really good reputation, and the school has a long list of impressive accomplishments. It sounds like it may be the kind of environment you're looking for -- diverse enough (in all ways) to give your children exposure to the best a city has to offer (as well as some glimpses into some of the problems), but still safe and nurturing enough and offering ample, high-quality educational and extracurricular opportunities.
Most of the suburban schools will be more diverse than what you are in now, both racially and economically. There is an assumption, all wrong, that the suburban schools are all white, upper class, not true. The reality in the suburban schools is that they are AS racially, and usually economically, diverse as the inner city schools, if you use the word properly. If you use that word like it is commonly used here, there are more black kids in the inner city schools than there are in the suburban schools. The racial make up of the schools is nearly identical, just different proportions.
The reality is that the suburban schools have graduation rates in the 90+% vs the inner city graduation rates of 49% so take that for whatever you want.
Drinking and drugs happen everywhere. It's up to your children to participate or not. School violence is more prevalent in the inner city schools. The suburban schools will also, generally, have more options for the arts, music and sports programs, and at a higher level for most.
Basically you have to decide, do you want your kids to go to Milwaukee like schools or more suburban like schools. Also keep in mind, MN isn't quite as rural as much of WI, especially in the Twin Cities Metro, and nowhere in the metro area would you be considered "in the boonies".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
