$5 million dollar loan for Southdale mall renovation (Burnsville, St. Cloud: rent, home equity)

[Clifford63]

Originally Posted by ocsid

This is a bad move. If you recall, Brookdale undertook a huge addition/remodel just a few years before they completely went under. The enclosed regional mall is a declining form of retail, in favor of lifestyle centers like Arbor Lake. Plus, Southdale is starting to get a rougher reputation, much like Brookdale before it.

I would agree that southdale seems to have a bit rougher feel in recent years, but I don't think it is doomed to the same fate as Brookdale. The mall that seems ripe for failure at the moment is Maplewood. I also recall lot of people saying Eden Prairie Center was doomed, but it is probably better than all of the dales now. Possible exception of Rosedale.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by Clifford63

I would agree that southdale seems to have a bit rougher feel in recent years, but I don't think it is doomed to the same fate as Brookdale. The mall that seems ripe for failure at the moment is Maplewood. I also recall lot of people saying Eden Prairie Center was doomed, but it is probably better than all of the dales now. Possible exception of Rosedale.

They just poured a ton of money into Maplewood. Someone's thinking (or hoping) it won't fail anytime soon.

Maplewood Mall's new look makes shoppers feel at home - TwinCities.com

[1stpontiac]

Brookdale is getting a massive redo as an outdoor-style mall, too, IIRC.

[Clifford63]

Originally Posted by Globe199

They just poured a ton of money into Maplewood. Someone's thinking (or hoping) it won't fail anytime soon.

Maplewood Mall's new look makes shoppers feel at home - TwinCities.com

I saw that. Seems like that has a lot less chance at success to me. That anchor stores are really not up to spec. Sears there is really lame and Macy's is even worse. If the stores still suck, why will people go there? Same thing with dumping money into Brookdale. Southdale has much better upside, but even that is not going to be easy task to make it a success again.

[ocsid]

Brookdale is becoming a Walmart.

The most depressed regional mall now is probably Northtown.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by Clifford63

I saw that. Seems like that has a lot less chance at success to me. That anchor stores are really not up to spec. Sears there is really lame and Macy's is even worse. If the stores still suck, why will people go there? Same thing with dumping money into Brookdale. Southdale has much better upside, but even that is not going to be easy task to make it a success again.

I haven't been in the Macy's there for a very long time (if ever), but I've found the Sears there surprisingly decent. The hardware department, at least, has some very helpful people. I bought my lawnmower there. Unfortunately the place is a bit out of my way.

[1stpontiac]

A mall I would like to visit would have:

Target (or similar)
Bookstore
Foodcourt
Hardware store (Ace/Truevalue/etc)
Shoe store
Modest-sized grocery store, or even a nice co-op
Drugstore
Petstore (I don't need any pets, but its fun to watch my daughter go nuts over the puppies)

But then, developers don't really base their building plans around people who want to get their shopping done as soon as possible and move on

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

A mall I would like to visit would have:

Target (or similar)
Bookstore
Foodcourt
Hardware store (Ace/Truevalue/etc)
Shoe store
Modest-sized grocery store, or even a nice co-op
Drugstore
Petstore (I don't need any pets, but its fun to watch my daughter go nuts over the puppies)

But then, developers don't really base their building plans around people who want to get their shopping done as soon as possible and move on

That's right. You're describing a shopping mall that may have existed in 1980

Besides, Target would like you to think they offer all that with the exception of the pet shop. That's why they don't build stores attached to malls anymore.

[GBCommenter]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

As far as the food goes, they're in the process of opening up a new food court, so that should really help.

I like Southdale, and vastly prefer it to the Mall of America. Many of my neighbors shop there and avoid MOA when they can -- MOA is big, and it's farther away. That said, there are times when people are going to want something huge like MOA, and obviously Southdale is not going to be able to compete with that. They are a good, solid local option, and I think there's hope for the future that they'll come back to life after a rough period. (the new Herberger's is also very nice and is making the place feel more alive)

To build on the first post, this is a loan, not a grant -- it's also being funded through TIF (from Centennial Lakes district) and the city is thinking about creating a Southdale-area TIF district (or maybe they did that at the meeting?), so it's not coming out of Edina's general funds. I wasn't at the meeting, but from what I had read Simon was, as part of the deal, also required to spend many more millions of their own money for the mall common areas. The Edina $ is also not being used for individual store renovations.

It may be a loan, but it is an interest free loan. Therefore, the "grant" is in the form of waiving the interest a bank or private loan would ask. Admittedly, if I were Simon and had a bank loaning at interest or a interest-free loan from the City, obviously I would be tempted to take what is essentially a form of handout. Also, what about the costs of originating the loan? Is Simon covering those costs or is that being absorbed by the City? If the City, obviously there is another grant. Finally, what is the collateral or guarantee if Simon defaults, or will the taxpayers of Edina just be on the hook? Worse yet, what if Simon defaults and Edina starts looking for a handout or aid from the State? Then we all pay for Simon's default.

We also have to come to the realization that funds allocated to a Southdale project means less funds for other needs and functions of government, so to UU - I respectfully question the seeming suggestion that it is acceptable to use these funds as they are not "general funds". Kind of like saying that it's okay to take a home equity loan or 401(k) distribution to fund a diamond ring because it's not coming out of my checkbook/paycheck (not a perfect analogy, I realize...)

To the greater point, all these questions can be fairly easily swept under the rug by the Council because it's always easier to spend someone else's money - which is what the Council is doing. We would all do much better to not psychologically divorce the fact of taxes paid is OUR money being paid without our real or practical consent. Just as many of us would be much more keenly focused on taxes if we actually had to write a check for income taxes instead of conveniently having them deducted out of a paycheck, perhaps we would be more keenly focused on expenditures if we all had to physically write a property tax check instead of including it in a mortgage or rent. Perhaps the Council would have a bit tougher questions to answer.

All my ranting said, I will say if I have to go to a mall, Southdale is more approachable than MOA. However, living on the northern side of the city I have little reason to go to either.

[StilltheSame]

They need some decent stores that people are interested in going to (or need to). They can start with Sephora, Justice and Hot Topic.