Do Marylanders consider themselves "North Eastern" (Baltimore, Hagerstown: 2014, home)
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Let me flip the question. What did you see that made Maryland feel so Northeastern? What is a substantive argument for it being Northeastern? I meant it is technically Southern per the Census.
I will continue to argue it’s Southern on all threads
You're going to keep on arguing that Maryland is Southern even though you haven't been able to present convincing reasons? (like being able to explain why the Census Bureau designated it as Southern).
But you asked why it seemed Northeastern to me, so here are some reasons, partly though my experience of working in DC and Baltimore:
Maryland is a very urban state, like Massachusetts or New Jersey. A geographically small state containing a big city
(Baltimore was once among the ten largest US cities). There's no state like that in the South.
And of course Maryland's urban areas are part of the Northeastern megalopolis, the string of cities that starts in DC and goes on up to Boston.
White-ethnic communities are a notable feature of Baltimore, just as in the other big Northeastern cities.
There's a Little Italy, and a Jewish neighborhood. At my job in Baltimore, maybe half the white people in the office
had last names that were either Italian, Jewish, Polish or Greek.
And of course politics: Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country. And remember Barbara Mikulski (elected to the US Senate five times)? Where else could a liberal Polish Catholic social worker be elected to the US Senate? New York? Certainly not Virginia – has Virginia ever elected any woman to the Senate?
I could go on, but still waiting for you to offer some convincing arguments for Maryland being in the South? I'd actually like to hear them.
Yes, of course it is. The Mason-Dixon Line was drawn to be Maryland's northern border.
So indeed Maryland lies to the south of its northern border. Every state lies south of its northern border.
But why does that line have any significance, other than being Maryland's northern border?
Mason and Dixon's job was to trace a border between the Maryland and Pennsylvania colonies,
not between the North and South (and the US hadn't even become a nation back then).
Speaking of history: the biggest rift in US history was the Civil War.
Maryland was with the Union -- the "North."
And I have a friend from western Pennsylvania. He says "you all."
Does that make Pennsylvania a southern state?
"Maryland was with the Union -- the "North."
Not all the PEOPLE.
Md is a mixed state.
In areas around DC and Balt and close to the MD PA state line, most would affiliate with the north. The rest of the state, the South.
I don't understand why you try to fight this so much in every thread. These are native Marylanders who consider ourselves Mid-Atlantic or Southern (not Northeastern).
I was born here and because it's a place of intersection (where you have both Northern and Southern culture), I think Mid-Atlantic is probably the best term, but the state is technically Southern.
"I don't understand why you try to fight this so much in every thread."
Being form ca, I'd bet he has never even stepped foot in MD, but KNOWS all there is to know about it!
Sounds just likes lot of libs on here who claims to know what everyone else knows and thinks.
When I read something that doesn't make sense.... yes, I argue against it.
(Though I avoid the Politics forum, because I'm not going to make a full-time job of arguing on CD.)
I'm not in Maryland now, and didn't grow up there either, but when I was there, everything I saw around me
and learned from reading indicated I was in the Northeast. Yet I read CDers saying, 'no MD isn't Northeastern, it's Southern'...
but for what reasons?
"Because the Census Bureau said so." But why? Did they do some kind of sociological analysis to explain that decision,
or was it only a bureaucratic convenience? Maybe they wanted to avoid splitting the DC metro area (DC and MD suburbs
in the North, VA suburbs in the South) for statistical purposes? Does anybody know?
"Because, the Mason-Dixon Line." A total mystery there: how did a border drawn between two colonies
somehow come to stand for the border between the Northern and Southern U.S.? No explanation.
Still waiting to hear some substantive arguments for Maryland being in the South.
And what does 'technically Southern' mean?
'Mid-Atlantic' seems to connote different things to different people. I understood it to mean
NY + NJ + PA + DE + MD + DC. If that's also your definition of Mid-Atlantic, we're on the same page.
But others say it includes VA, or maybe doesn't include NY/NJ.
I have NEVER heard a substantive argument for why Maryland is Northeastern. Being Democratic (which California, Washington, Illinois, etc are) and wealthy (which several states can claim), doesn't cut it.
I'm still waiting to hear how MD is so northeastern........
Until then, I will go by the Census (CURRENT) designation of Southern and the Mason Dixon Line (which is a historic rough estimate, even though that wasn't it's purpose).
In common vernacular, most people think "Northeast" when they hear the phrase "The North." But in the Midwest, it is commonly used to refer to the Great Lakes States- Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Minnesota. Most of these states (especially Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan) are further "north" than many of the NE States like PA, NJ, Mass, RI, Conn, etc.).
Ohio is considered Northern, but if you spit across the river into Kentucky, they are considered Southern hicks or hillbilly's.
Too many make too much of a big deal about it all.
When I read something that doesn't make sense.... yes, I argue against it.
(Though I avoid the Politics forum, because I'm not going to make a full-time job of arguing on CD.)
I'm not in Maryland now, and didn't grow up there either, but when I was there, everything I saw around me
and learned from reading indicated I was in the Northeast. Yet I read CDers saying, 'no MD isn't Northeastern, it's Southern'...
but for what reasons?
"Because the Census Bureau said so." But why? Did they do some kind of sociological analysis to explain that decision,
or was it only a bureaucratic convenience? Maybe they wanted to avoid splitting the DC metro area (DC and MD suburbs
in the North, VA suburbs in the South) for statistical purposes? Does anybody know?
"Because, the Mason-Dixon Line." A total mystery there: how did a border drawn between two colonies
somehow come to stand for the border between the Northern and Southern U.S.? No explanation.
Still waiting to hear some substantive arguments for Maryland being in the South.
And what does 'technically Southern' mean?
'Mid-Atlantic' seems to connote different things to different people. I understood it to mean
NY + NJ + PA + DE + MD + DC. If that's also your definition of Mid-Atlantic, we're on the same page.
But others say it includes VA, or maybe doesn't include NY/NJ.
"When I read something that doesn't make sense...."
You're going to keep on arguing that Maryland is Southern even though you haven't been able to present convincing reasons? (like being able to explain why the Census Bureau designated it as Southern).
But you asked why it seemed Northeastern to me, so here are some reasons, partly though my experience of working in DC and Baltimore:
Maryland is a very urban state, like Massachusetts or New Jersey. A geographically small state containing a big city
(Baltimore was once among the ten largest US cities). There's no state like that in the South.
And of course Maryland's urban areas are part of the Northeastern megalopolis, the string of cities that starts in DC and goes on up to Boston.
White-ethnic communities are a notable feature of Baltimore, just as in the other big Northeastern cities.
There's a Little Italy, and a Jewish neighborhood. At my job in Baltimore, maybe half the white people in the office
had last names that were either Italian, Jewish, Polish or Greek.
And of course politics: Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country. And remember Barbara Mikulski (elected to the US Senate five times)? Where else could a liberal Polish Catholic social worker be elected to the US Senate? New York? Certainly not Virginia – has Virginia ever elected any woman to the Senate?
I could go on, but still waiting for you to offer some convincing arguments for Maryland being in the South? I'd actually like to hear them.
So, my opinion on all this is that MD is a border state, a mixture of Northern and Southern traits that vary from region to region. You lived in the part that is most connected to the states to our north. What is your opinion on the regional status of Southern Maryland, Western Maryland, and the Eastern Shore?
Keep in mind that while Maryland is a small state by land area, people ID here by region and county. Our settlements are old, many people have lived in the same region since the Revolutionary War. When two MDers meet, the question of "which county" comes up quickly. If the two people have a region or regional roots in common, a conversation normally follows. If not, the conversation normally peters out fast. Somebody from Baltimore or the D.C. burbs normally has less in common with me that a person from northern WV or SW PA, for instance.
You're going to keep on arguing that Maryland is Southern even though you haven't been able to present convincing reasons? (like being able to explain why the Census Bureau designated it as Southern).
But you asked why it seemed Northeastern to me, so here are some reasons, partly though my experience of working in DC and Baltimore:
Maryland is a very urban state, like Massachusetts or New Jersey. A geographically small state containing a big city
(Baltimore was once among the ten largest US cities). There's no state like that in the South.
And of course Maryland's urban areas are part of the Northeastern megalopolis, the string of cities that starts in DC and goes on up to Boston.
White-ethnic communities are a notable feature of Baltimore, just as in the other big Northeastern cities.
There's a Little Italy, and a Jewish neighborhood. At my job in Baltimore, maybe half the white people in the office
had last names that were either Italian, Jewish, Polish or Greek.
And of course politics: Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country. And remember Barbara Mikulski (elected to the US Senate five times)? Where else could a liberal Polish Catholic social worker be elected to the US Senate? New York? Certainly not Virginia – has Virginia ever elected any woman to the Senate?
I could go on, but still waiting for you to offer some convincing arguments for Maryland being in the South? I'd actually like to hear them.
Not convincing at all.....I'm still waiting.
Do you want be to actually post the numbers for these ethnic groups......... Nowhere near what you would see in the NE or Chicago.
Still waiting because this doesn't cut it at all. Still Southern
Do you want be to actually post the numbers for these ethnic groups.........
Nowhere near what you would see in the NE or Chicago.
Still waiting because this doesn't cut it at all. Still Southern
No, now it's your turn to try to prove MD is Southern.
For example, in what Southern city could you find an ethnic presence like Baltimore's?
Probably none, but if there is such a city, let's hear about it. And you certainly can't name
a Southern state that votes the way MD does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
"When I read something that doesn't make sense...."
Being from Ca, I can understand your problem!
I could care less what "makes sense" to you!
Thanks for sharing. Same to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
So, my opinion on all this is that MD is a border state, a mixture of Northern and Southern traits that vary from region to region.
You lived in the part that is most connected to the states to our north. What is your opinion on the regional status of Southern Maryland, Western Maryland, and the Eastern Shore?
Keep in mind that while Maryland is a small state by land area, people ID here by region and county. Our settlements are old, many people have lived in the same region since the Revolutionary War. When two MDers meet, the question of "which county" comes up quickly. If the two people have a region or regional roots in common, a conversation normally follows. If not, the conversation normally peters out fast. Somebody from Baltimore or the D.C. burbs normally has less in common with me that a person from northern WV or SW PA, for instance.
Hey, first of all, thanks for being polite.
So if you were at some faraway airport or hotel, and ran into someone from Garrett County,
you'd find a lot to talk about... but if they were from the Eastern Shore, probably not?
Yes, I lived in the urban / suburban core of MD, where most of the population is.
And I had a friend from Dorchester County, so we'd go over there now and then...
obviously, that's a very different kind of place. I didn't spend much time in Western or
Southern MD, so haven't got any personal impressions to go by.
It sounds like the point you're making is that the way people live doesn't necessarily correspond to state lines. That was the same thesis the author Joel Garreau made when he wrote "The Nine Nations of North America." He assigned a tiny slice of S MD to "Dixie," and the rest of the state to "the Foundry" (which included WV, PA, NJ, NY, but also e.g. Ohio and Michigan.) Do you agree with that?
I still think that if we must assign states in their entirety to categories, MD belongs to the Northeast, not the South. I'm still waiting for even a moderately-persuasive case to the contrary. Someone mentioned the structure of local government (and that was interesting), but I don't think it weighs more heavily than the state's voting behavior.
But thanks for reminding us that there can be big differences within a state, including a small state.
Rural vs urban is a major difference.
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