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Contractors:
I bought a commercial building in 2016. Earlier that year [in 2016] the previous owner had replaced the flat roof rubber membrane.
Since I have owned it, that same roof failed twice and I hired roofing contractors to replace the rubber membrane, both times.
Now it is leaking again. Yesterday, I had another contractor up on that roof examining the membrane. He says the current 2021 membrane is the thinnest membrane available on the market and would never be expected to last a year.
To save money the previous roofers, each one of them, had used the cheapest roofing membrane they could source. It leaks through into the space below and it has destroyed a sheetrock ceiling.
This contractor is working on a design to build a slanted roof with metal roofing over the existing flat roof.
My previous experience with flat roofs was when I was active in the Old Town VFW, their flat roof failed every year. The contractor that they used would come out and pour a layer of gravel on their roof, then spread hot tar over the gravel to seal it in place. It never stopped the leaks. It was a big mess every summer, it smelled bad and it cost a lot of money. I was never satisfied with the idea of adding tonnes of gravel onto a roof, but they did it every year. It was the traditional repair method.
Submariner, that's what I mean by home owners have to have some technical knowledge of what their house needs. None of the roofers who came to my house agreed on the materials, whether it was the shingles, underlayment, chimney flashing, etc. Some have an interest in getting you to go with a certain material sold by a supplier that gives them a discount that they pocket, whether that's the right material for you or not. I did a lot of research on materials and chose my own. Of course I listened to the advice from the roofers, but ultimately it's your roof and you can put whatever you want on it if you accept responsibility for the outcome. Home maintenance forums and roofers' forums are a great source of information, but you will find a lot of disagreement about methods and materials among experienced people in the forums. So you sift through it and make up your own mind.
nmstheham, thanks for expanding on the discussion about contractors. I have a couple of things to add.
In my post I said the roofer was unwilling to warranty his workmanship, not his price. This is a big red flag.
I found that the size of the quote was directly related to whether the roofer was willing to do a contract, the time spent talking to me and inspecting the roof, the level of detail of the project planning, etc. The lowest quote was $2200 for the labor. For that I got an out-of-state roofer, no on-site inspection before the job (photos only), no contract ("I usually just give you a bill at the end"), and no follow-up after the roofer expressed his interested in the job. The roofer did have good local references from someone I know. The highest quote was $4300 for labor. For that I got a local roofer, careful inspection of the roof, lengthy discussion of the materials, a contract, warranty on the workmanship, the roofer would obtain the materials I didn't already have, and follow up by phone to discuss the job---but then an unwillingness to negotiate the price. That kind of time spent on the quote and communication with the customer costs money.
I'm going to go with a roofer in the middle between those two. My advice is to look for red flags. In my case, the initial red flag---which I didn't pick up on---was that the roofer said I had "two to three layers of shingles" on the roof, but he didn't go up on the roof or use binoculars to verify that. There was actually only one layer and the roof failed quickly following windstorms that tore the shingles off. That was clear at the time of the quote because the bare sheathing was visible in many places (with binoculars or going up on the roof). So you have to get some technical knowledge of the work you want done so you know what questions to ask.
I am thinking that the 1st roofer would not warranty the work due to the already obvious damage..... if there was exposed sheathing, then you very probably already have water intrusion and damage, whether this has yet to become visible on the inside or not. (Hence my comment on the x-ray vision.) So it is probable IMHO that the 1st roofer saw this and did not want to be caught in a situation where you blamed him for later finding water damage that had come from water intrusion prior to his work. Separating out exactly when damage occurred is nigh impossible. So demanding a warranty for work after there is some unknown existing damage is very likely to result in a refusal, or a warranty worded so it is not worth anything anyway.
I am not saying the above to be mean or anything like that, but to help all to understand that this not a retail sale. Contracting is a 2-way street between the 2 parties, and customers can be easy to please or they can be demanding. Once you get burned once or twice by the latter, you learn to 'put your armor on' and state what you are willing to do or not do, and be ready to walk if the customer keeps demanding 'their way' without be willing to pay for the extras. Demands for contracts usually indicate the latter customer type, and it is a flag to either raise prices and be firm on that price, or move on. This is what you seem to be finding, and it is to be expected. We try to strike a middle ground and do quotes on our forms that are efficient for us to do, and we state a clear scope of work and all exceptions. We don't hesitate to discuss the job. But we factor all of this in (plus I am better at writing and documenting than the average contractor), and are firm on our prices.
Also realize that in all contracting, mark-up (profit) on materials is part of the whole profit picture. So if you want to provide materials, then that is fine but don't be surprised when the labor price goes up; the profit has to be enough or it is not worth doing. Plus the customer may provide what they know about for materials, but often will not know to provide all the little bits and pieces, so the contractor has to be ready to fill in the missing parts quickly upon arriving on site and finding them missing. If it is something like some roofing nails, then that is usually easy to solve, but not for things like special flashing. Someone has to pay for the time lost to get the parts, and if the customer is providing the materials, then the customer should pay for any such time lost. So again, the customer wanting to provide materials tends to drives contractors to raise prices to cover those potential time and cost increases. There is 'more than one way to skin this materials cat'; I am just explaining how it works from the other side of the fence.
BTW, if your single layer of shingles failed in a wind storm then they may have been put down in cold weather and the tar strips never stuck down. Putting on a composition shingle roof in hot weather is ideal.... then the tar strips under the tabs will melt in the hot sun and they will all stick together. If done in cold weather and they don't stick, then dirt and moisture will get under the tabs and into the tar strips' surface and they likely will never stick together ever, regardless of how much summer sun they get. And of course, I don't know how old they were; they could just have been falling apart.
If you had bare sheathing at the time of that first roofer's visit, no binoculars were needed..... water intrusion was already happening, regardless of the number of layers. I don't know how this is anyone's fault.... it just is what it is. But perhaps your real point is that you think a roofer ought to go up and inspect a roof. That is OK to a point.... but it takes time and the contractor may be 100% right in his assessment from the ground. And if it is a steep roof with pitch of 6 over 12 or more, then you have to be more and more careful. The steep New England roofs that shed snow so well are only to be set foot upon with the proper ladders and safety equipment, and to expect that in seeking an estimate where you are not guaranteeing its acceptance is not realistic. If the contractors is doing an estimate for free, then it is 100% his choice on how to approach it.
The comment made on differing opinions on what is best is a good one. I see it in the contracting world and in things like the auto hobby world. It seems like experience drives most of this, not detailed product knowledge. Different results with the same product usually comes from differences in the applications and environments, and that rarely comes out in discussions. It is like Submariner's flat roof..... it can work fine in the right situation, or be an annual fail.... I'd guess that the roof in his case gets standing snow and there is limited insulation underneath so there is standing water under the snow for months. A flat roof that gets dried quickly every time it gets wet won't have the same problems... like down south. Contractors will have their experiences and that will color their opinions on what is good or not. It's almost like they are normal human beings LOL
I am thinking that the 1st roofer would not warranty the work due to the already obvious damage..... if there was exposed sheathing, then you very probably already have water intrusion and damage. . . . So it is probable IMHO that the 1st roofer saw this and did not want to be caught in a situation where you blamed him for later finding water damage that had come from water intrusion prior to his work.
Most of your post is based on wholly incorrect assumptions and guesses about my house that favor the contractor to absolve him of responsibility. Why would you form an opinion without getting the facts first? I can't reply to each of your points. I will only say that your post is exactly why I recommend that home buyers educate themselves about their home's structure and systems and watch for red flags like contractors who think a home owner who wants a contract for a roof costing $5,000 to $30,000 is being "demanding" or think it's unreasonable to expect a roofer to actually inspect a roof prior to the job.
I now have a new roof, responsibly and competently done. The entire roof decking was found to be in good condition and no repairs were needed. The job went off without a hitch thanks to good prior planning by myself and the contractor, amicable discussions, and a clear contract. That's the way it should go.
Last edited by Last1Standing; 09-05-2021 at 01:42 PM..
We moved from NJ to Washington County in 2018. We have not had to take snow off of our roof so far. (I would love to have a metal one.)
We have a garage, and after starting some plants indoors, we then move them to the garage and put them under a light. I plant way less flowers than i did in NJ, as we have even more deer here and it just doesnt pay (to me). I put some in pots on the decks.
We have had big issues getting work done. We've been waiting months to get a plumber - he did call one day and we had to take friends to the airport. I think he's given up now (we didnt have a choice - couldnt stay home). I'm going to call someone else - obviously.
We also need new doors and called/messaged 3 people. One finally called back, came and measured, and that was 2 years ago. Never heard from him again. I get easily frustrated as i have a lot of projects i need done, and only a small amount of money. I save up, and just wish they'd come and get the job done.
We are both Seniors and i have two bad knees, so we usually pay someone to plow. My guy can shovel to a certain extent - but then i start yelling at him if he goes too far
The short Winter days don't really bother me. I read a lot and have a dog to hang out with. We do go outside whenever we can, and i keep a chair on the deck until the worst of Winter comes. The view and the scenery here make it worth it. It seems to go by pretty quick to me.
Most of your post is based on wholly incorrect assumptions and guesses about my house that favor the contractor to absolve him of responsibility. Why would you form an opinion without getting the facts first? I can't reply to each of your points. I will only say that your post is exactly why I recommend that home buyers educate themselves about their home's structure and systems and watch for red flags like contractors who think a home owner who wants a contract for a roof costing $5,000 to $30,000 is being "demanding" or think it's unreasonable to expect a roofer to actually inspect a roof prior to the job.
I now have a new roof, responsibly and competently done. The entire roof decking was found to be in good condition and no repairs were needed. The job went off without a hitch thanks to good prior planning by myself and the contractor, amicable discussions, and a clear contract. That's the way it should go.
Well I was afraid that would be the reaction. Not trying to get on your case, or be judgemental at all. I think I just took what you wrote as for the exposed roof decking and played devil's advocate. I just don't like to see anyone in any situation blamed for something without a both sides being told.
I can see both sides of the situation.... and am trying to explain that each person and contractor is going to have their own views and valid experiences, and they may not end up agreeing. If the contractor does not meet your standards of behavior, then you're perfectly justified in walking away.
IMHO, it's a matter of walking in the other person's shoes for a while to see the other side. If you were in the contracting business (or ANY business for that matter!), you will develop your own standards for good reasons. I have to take exception to the sentiment of "That is the way it should go." Different approaches can come up with good results.
Glad you got good results, and I'm certainly not pleased with any other damage. You are right on becoming educated as much as you can.
Hey Chris, you sound a lot like me. I made the move on my own almost five years ago from the west coast to Midcoast. I was preoccupied with a lot of the same questions and spent many hours reading here and getting some excellent advice. Ultimately, I learned what I needed to to learn to be able to get along on my own here. I am a gardener, too, and now have a strong network of other gardeners who are good friends.
Oh, I am also a shorty with a big gas snowblower that I use on my driveway and walkways. I have paid someone to rake part of my roof a few times when the snow was deep and heavy.
All of this was new to me when I moved here, apart from all the obsessive research I did ahead of the move. Happy to share my experiences with you.
Hey Chris, you sound a lot like me. I made the move on my own almost five years ago from the west coast to Midcoast. I was preoccupied with a lot of the same questions and spent many hours reading here and getting some excellent advice. Ultimately, I learned what I needed to to learn to be able to get along on my own here. I am a gardener, too, and now have a strong network of other gardeners who are good friends.
Oh, I am also a shorty with a big gas snowblower that I use on my driveway and walkways. I have paid someone to rake part of my roof a few times when the snow was deep and heavy.
All of this was new to me when I moved here, apart from all the obsessive research I did ahead of the move. Happy to share my experiences with you.
Hi Westeasterly! Great name, btw. I recently joined the Backyard Gardening Maine group on Facebook to get a handle on the differences I'll face growing in zone 4b. With the short season, things seem more intense there. Pests wreak havoc everywhere, but here in SoCal we have more time to deal with them and the plants can potentially recover. Am I off base thinking that when pests, pestilence and plague descend on a garden there, you don't have as much time to identify and treat the problem before the garden starts winding down? I feel like I'm going to have to up my observation game to try to keep on top of things.
I'd love it if you would share your experiences with me. Can you recommend any groups I should join? Just to throw it in, I've also taken up quilting to keep busy in the winter.
We have had big issues getting work done. We've been waiting months to get a plumber - he did call one day and we had to take friends to the airport. I think he's given up now (we didnt have a choice - couldnt stay home). I'm going to call someone else - obviously.
We also need new doors and called/messaged 3 people. One finally called back, came and measured, and that was 2 years ago. Never heard from him again. I get easily frustrated as i have a lot of projects i need done, and only a small amount of money. I save up, and just wish they'd come and get the job done.
This is a big concern to me as I'll have to buy a house that hasn't been loved in a while. But my goal is to find one that I can live in without it falling down around me before I can get it fixed up. I can paint all day long, but electrical and plumbing are out of my league. I'm hoping to find some adult ed classes in home repair, and a class in how to use power tools would be great. Realistically, I'll have to hire trades for a lot of the work, but I'll do as much as I can on my own.
This is a big concern to me as I'll have to buy a house that hasn't been loved in a while. But my goal is to find one that I can live in without it falling down around me before I can get it fixed up. I can paint all day long, but electrical and plumbing are out of my league. I'm hoping to find some adult ed classes in home repair, and a class in how to use power tools would be great. Realistically, I'll have to hire trades for a lot of the work, but I'll do as much as I can on my own.
I think it's great that you want to train up on some home fix-it skills. If you think that ultimately, you will need contractors to do most of the fixer-uppering, I think you don't want to get a house that's been neglected too much - paying contractors isn't cheap and you may never turn the corner on the remodeling it needs.
Some old houses need high priority work in a host of areas, water damage, rotted wood, lots of carpentering to be done, unsafe wiring that's a fire hazard, ancient heating system, lifted/missing shingles and a leaky roof that needs a full tear-off and some carpentering underneath to replace decking and maybe broken or sagging rafters, instead of a little peeling paint it's got lots of soft grey wood exposed to the weather, kitchen and/or bath are kind of a disaster, porches might need mitigation or tear-off and replacement - don't get one of those, it will take too much money to fix 'er up. To make it livable is actually more expensive than a place that's in better shape.
Other old houses aren't "shiny" - the floors are scuffed up and there may be some marks on the walls or wallpaper you don't like, the kitchen and bath are dated and unfashionable - but they were once nice and are still in good condition so if you're pragmatic you can live with them as is, the siding and roof are serviceable and their maintenance was never just ignored for any length of time, it has the old 1800s windows, but the wood isn't rotted and they're mostly still operable, all the planes of the walls and roofs are still straight, the porch posts, framing and decking are still solid, wiring is from the last 40 years, not 80+ years... this is the house you want - it might not be featured in "Downeast" magazine, but most everything is in serviceable condition, and it might need one or two wallet-challenging projects in the short term - e.g. maybe a new boiler and exterior paint, but there isn't a whole list of major projects that are must-dos.
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 09-14-2021 at 04:26 AM..
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