Dangerous flash flooding in Breathitt, Perry, Owsley, Knott, Clay and Letcher counties (attorneys, abandoned)

[kygman]

There are a lot of people in that part of the state who can't afford to pack up and move. Not enough money to buy a house, or land, and no where else to go.

[censusdata]

Mostly true but exaggerated that all people in rural E KY are poor. My wife's uncle has the money to live in a nice neighborhood in E Louisville or SW Lexington but instead chose to stay home and live behind a river. A high percent of E KYians have moved out of state to work. Many move back home after prime working years. So it's not that people there are unwilling to ever move. It took the 1936 flood for Louisville to get people to higher ground and then build flood walls. This is probably the worst flood since the 1940s in E KY and perhaps this is what it takes for change to happen.

Things I'd like to see done

1. Update all flood risk maps with the effects of surface mine sites being considered.

2. Offer a cash reward for anyone who moves from a flood zone to a new home site on a former surface mine site. In some cases attempt to move entire towns to them. Hazard already has most shopping and a hospital on a mine site.

3. All K-12 students in the state need to be taught natural disaster risks for their home. Every kid should know if their home is in a flood risk zone or where the nearest underground shelter is for tornadoes.

[kygman]

I'd be leery even of land over underground mines. They have a problem in Webster County of some houses being lost to mine subsidence

[censusdata]

The big issue with Appalachian surface mine sites is they can't be reforested. Best case is grass and small shrubs. Large trees hold a lot of rain of ground. I'm convinced it is the reason for the high death toll. Leslie County got same rain but no deaths. Entire county is in national forest and has almost no surface mines

[marino760]

Originally Posted by censusdata

The big issue with Appalachian surface mine sites is they can't be reforested. Best case is grass and small shrubs. Large trees hold a lot of rain of ground. I'm convinced it is the reason for the high death toll. Leslie County got same rain but no deaths. Entire county is in national forest and has almost no surface mines

Could you please explain this to someone who is ignorant of what happens with old surface mine sites? Why can't they be reforested? What do you mean by trees hold a lot of rain of the ground?

It seems to me and I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, the problem isn't with trees or the ground. The hills where those floods occurred didn't fail. People didn't die and lose their homes because of mudslides as happens in the western part of the country. Those small towns are built in small valleys in-between hills and mountains with creeks, streams and rivers running through them. The water has no where else to go except down the hills (which is natural) and into the those streams and rivers, inundating the towns with ever rising waters. I don't pretend to have a solution except counties need to start having building codes appropriate to the terrain. Fema maps don't prevent people from building in flood zones.

So please someone explain to me if I am wrong and if so how. I really am trying to understand.

[marino760]

Originally Posted by arctictropical

Of course strip mines can be reforested, a simple google search reveals wealth of material and manuals of their reforestation. When coal company doesn't want to pay to plant the trees, and no one makes it, then they are not being reforested.

Yes, those houses sit in the known flood zones in narrow hollers and once in a while water will be high enough with nowhere to go, strip mines or not, tons of homes sit in the FEMA flood zone.
People do not need more building codes.
Houses can be built elevated, but this is not a guarantee of anything, they can be swept off those piers if the flood is strong enough.
There's no enforcement of "building codes" in rural Kentucky, luckily, it's not New York City yet.
If people don't want to lose their investment, they buy FEMA flood insurance and it pays for the loss. This insurance had been going up greatly since the last 2 years and this higher cost should be a deterrent for new construction in the flood zone.

Flood insurance is great to a certain point if you can afford it, but flood insurance won't prevent your house from washing away nor prevent deaths due to floods. Many middle class people today can't afford it so buying flood insurance for many is a non issue unless of course you have a mortgage on your house. In that case, you won't have a choice but to have flood insurance or your loan will never be approved by a standard lender or bank.
Unless people are paying cash to rebuild, a new loan will be denied without a large premium flood insurance policy because who is going to lend money to rebuild in a place that was just washed away by a flood?

[GraniteStater]

Most of the surface mined areas never regrow the same quality and caliber as what originally existed before mining occurred. Severe flooding occurred in Perry County that contains the city of Hazard. Over half the county surface area has been extensively mined, and many areas are poorly reclaimed to any similar extent regarding dense tree coverage that existed prior to the land being damaged. The flooding would have been very bad, but the land use and land cover change magnified the problems to a large extent.

Edit: it appears that Knott County had several new surface mines within the last 5 years. More extreme and catastrophic flooding has occurred there.

[marino760]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

Most of the surface mined areas never regrow the same quality and caliber as what originally existed before mining occurred. Severe flooding occurred in Perry County that contains the city of Hazard. Over half the county surface area has been extensively mined, and many areas are poorly reclaimed to any similar extent regarding dense tree coverage that existed prior to the land being damaged. The flooding would have been very bad, but the land use and land cover change magnified the problems to a large extent.

Edit: it appears that Knott County had several new surface mines within the last 5 years. More extreme and catastrophic flooding has occurred there.

It would probably take 100 years for an area to mostly recover from strip mining and look at least somewhat similar to the surrounding natural landscape. Even with the help of people, it takes trees a very long time to grow to maturity and start to reproduce, and the undergrowth of natural shrubs, grasses and wildflowers needs to reestablish. Wildlife moving in would help a great deal when that's possible but we're talking about many decades.

[censusdata]

Surface mines on flat terrain can be easily reforested and environmental damage is mostly repairable. In the steep hills of Appalachia so much is dug out of the hills to get down to the coal that all top soil is removed. In KY and WV the cheapest 'fix' is some Chinese grass mixed with gravel. There is a less destructive type of surface mining only done at certain elevations of the larger mountains called Contour Mining. This leaves a strip of destruction but at least forest still exist above and below.

If you've ever walked in a forest during rain you'll notice that unless rain is heavy none of it reaches the ground. All the leaves hold a decent amount off the ground and the roots hold top soil down. That held rain is released back into the atmosphere as water vapor, producing those post card mountain fog images. Trees also absorb large amounts of water from the ground.

Some Google Streetview images for context
A former surface mine site on one side vs dense forest on the other.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2794...7i13312!8i6656

Same site, just down road. Note the artificial 'stream' that quickly dumps huge amounts of runoff into creeks downstream.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2780...7i13312!8i6656

This is a reclaimed surface mine site in the flatlands of W KY near John Prine's "Paradise". The land is altered but trees are growing back. Storm runoff in this terrain isn't anything like in E KY.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2443...!7i3328!8i1664

[DillyDilly97]

Originally Posted by marino760

Could you please explain this to someone who is ignorant of what happens with old surface mine sites? Why can't they be reforested? What do you mean by trees hold a lot of rain of the ground?

It seems to me and I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, the problem isn't with trees or the ground. The hills where those floods occurred didn't fail. People didn't die and lose their homes because of mudslides as happens in the western part of the country. Those small towns are built in small valleys in-between hills and mountains with creeks, streams and rivers running through them. The water has no where else to go except down the hills (which is natural) and into the those streams and rivers, inundating the towns with ever rising waters. I don't pretend to have a solution except counties need to start having building codes appropriate to the terrain. Fema maps don't prevent people from building in flood zones.

So please someone explain to me if I am wrong and if so how. I really am trying to understand.

Exactly! Common sense says don’t live and build in a flood zone or area that’s prone to flooding. It’s like living on the coast of Louisiana/Mississippi and complaining about constant Hurricanes. Where’s the common sense?