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100% agree. For my kids, undergrad plus masters degrees paved the way to great careers. But I also get that they were lucky in that their parents paid for their undergrad degrees and they both worked full time, went to school full time at night to pay for their Masters degrees. Not easy to do, but those degrees have paid off quite nicely.
As you pointed out, now a days there are lots of jobs/careers where a degree is what gets you in the door. It’s not 1970 anymore when factory jobs were plentiful and open to any (male) regardless of education level. And those jobs provided a decent living. Those who used to rely on those jobs need to either learn a trade or get a college degree to compete in the current workforce. Both are more costly and time consuming than just applying for a job at the local factory. Schools need to partner more with community colleges to provide training for those who want to go into a trade.
Excellent post. Actually there are a lot of businesses who are willing to pay while you train in the areas of plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc. And they pay well. They are beating the bushes for folks. These business owners state how perplexed they are that some millennials and gen Z would rather design websites for very low pay...
Excellent post. Actually there are a lot of businesses who are willing to pay while you train in the areas of plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc. And they pay well. They are beating the bushes for folks. These business owners state how perplexed they are that some millennials and gen Z would rather design websites for very low pay...
I’d guess that’s because just like everyone isn’t college material nor is everyone trade material. Not all can or want to do plumbing or HVAC or electrical work. That’s why we need to equally support both tracks.
One thing I have always heard perpetuated by Americans on social media, In the media itself since I was a kid was that you need to go to College to not end up impoverished. Even In TV and movies growing up you would see that if a high school student wasn't accepted into a College it was seen as the end of the world. In Europe and here in OZ/NZ this way of thinking is very strange to us. There are PLENTY of well paid skilled occupations that don't require university. In fact leaving school at 16-18 is quite common where many may go on to learn a trade for example and earn a salary higher than many who go to University.
Is the College obsession in the US really a thing or just something we see In the media? It's just something I'm alien to and wanted to see if it's actually a thing.
A post-secondary diploma (college degree) increases the probability of better earnings potential for the average person, but it is not necessary.
I remember several decades ago that having a college degree was rare and special, but over the past couple of decades, with so much “free” money flooding the system, it no longer seems so rare and special, not worth more than a high school diploma in, say, the 1950s-1960s, despite the appearance of a much higher sticker price.
By my calculations, still worth it for a STEM (including medical and nursing), law, or high finance degree, but for basic liberal arts not so much unless the goal is to teach and/or do research and publish it.
So worth aspiring to, but not necessarily a deal-breaker in life.
Is the College obsession in the US really a thing or just something we see In the media? It's just something I'm alien to and wanted to see if it's actually a thing.
I'm American but I lived in Australia (Brisbane) for 2 years, funny enough I was there getting a Masters degree.
The percentage of people with bachelor's degrees is pretty much the same in both countries 44% vs 42% but for the people in their late 20s the numbers go the other way with the US at 46% and Australia at 48%. Ireland, UK, and Norway are all in this same range. Canada at 54% and NZ at 36% are the outliers there.
I think where the US and Oz really diverge is in continuing ed. Let me clarify, the community college system in the US is fantastic and cheap but it's also underutilized and under appreciated. A lot of people (myself included) use it as a stepping stone to a 4-year university but almost all of the community colleges have great vocational and professional certification programs. But in Oz there's a strong emphasis on credentials and professional certification regardless of what you do and you don't have to take any college courses for it. I respect it. It's like it doesn't matter if you're cleaning offices, flipping burgers, or maintaining power lines - be good at what you do and take pride in your craft.
Part of the problem in the US, and this works in both directions, is that we're not an island and we're overwhelmed with a constant stream of cheap, low skilled labor. Because of that there's a resistance to certification that would lock out cheaper labor.
But there's also a very strong correlation between economic strength/GDP per capita and college education. Portugal and Italy are around 22 and 17% respectively and in Italy young people aren't really doing better with 25-34 year olds only at 22%.
Brazil is 14% and for young people it's 15%
South Africa is 7% and for young people it's 5%
You can't run a modern economy when such a small percentage of your population actually has the technical expertise to do it. This is actually the problem with places like Detroit and Cleveland - not the cities but the entire metro areas have adult college graduation rates between 8 and 12%. Pittsburgh and Buffalo used to be in a similar situation 40 years ago but have gotten their numbers up closer to 30%. Detroit and Cleveland are still in the same place. That's the problem. You can't expect to run an economy on 1920s technology forever and you can't expect to attract or keep modern industries if there's no one around to run them.
I don't think everyone needs to to go university. I think a lot of degrees are completely worthless. But we do actually need a lot of well educated people to keep our modern economies humming. Maybe that's 60%, maybe it's 40% but it's definitely more than 20%.
One of the reasons for the obsession with college is due to status. Manual labor is viewed as a lower standard (mediocre at best) by many in this country. College degrees are associated with intelligence, the upper classes, and generally being a refined individual. This is changing; however, for the time being even if the non-college educated individual is successful and makes a lot of money, they will never be held in the same regard as their degree holding counterparts by the masses in society. Considering this young men will choose the college option since that will afford them greater dating success.
Why do people give a crap how a job is 'looked at' or 'look down at' manual labor? I mean, I've got a.. Quasi-nephew who, once out of high school, got a job as a groundskeeper at a golf course/country club. He's now, some 8 years later, the head groundskeeper (Whatever the job title is) making.. Decent money. I mean, he's not going out an buying a Porsche or anything, but he's making more than enough to survive. He'd be solidly in 'middle class' territory.
I talked with him this past weekend. And asked him how he liked what he was doing.. He said he loved it, but that he did get people who kinda looked sideways at him for what he did. I told him.. Who cares? And broke out the old saying.. If you're doing something you love, you're not working. You're getting paid for doing something you enjoy.
Otherwise.. just to tie this and the golf course all together.. Remember.. "The world needs ditch diggers, too, Danny!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994
I'm another working class white guy without a degree. I went to night school to learn computer programming. There were lots of working class whites and blacks in the class, many of whom you could tell were never gonna write code for a living. Some were re-taking the class for free after failing on their first try. But they had federally guaranteed loans, and that's all the school cared about.
I faced discrimination in hiring because I did not have a degree. I finally landed a job at $6.50 an hour (1983) but once I got a foot in the door in the industry, I was set for life. Nobody would care if I studied English 101 or Sociology in 1978 as long as I had experience writing code.
I don't think we have the cartoonish racial discrimination today that some practiced in the 1950's, although there may be some isolated cases. And are people like that really hiring college graduates? At most large corporations there is so-called reverse discrimination (now called DEI or ESG) in hiring and promotion, if anything.
And. This is really the point here. The college degree doesn't mean you're any smarter than anyone else. Many times, you're not. But, that degree (or whatever you're received from studies) is a foot in the door.
If you can get the foot in another way.. That's usually fine. Most every employer would rather have someone with experience than just a piece of paper. But, if it comes down to the choice between two someones with no/limited experience and one of them has that piece of paper.. That piece of paper means alot!
One thing I have always heard perpetuated by Americans on social media, In the media itself since I was a kid was that you need to go to College to not end up impoverished. Even In TV and movies growing up you would see that if a high school student wasn't accepted into a College it was seen as the end of the world. In Europe and here in OZ/NZ this way of thinking is very strange to us. There are PLENTY of well paid skilled occupations that don't require university. In fact leaving school at 16-18 is quite common where many may go on to learn a trade for example and earn a salary higher than many who go to University.
Is the College obsession in the US really a thing or just something we see In the media? It's just something I'm alien to and wanted to see if it's actually a thing.
Essential for what, is the question.
Essential for earning a middle class living? No. Essential for earning a high income? Not necessarily, but it would help, if you want a profession. But you can make big bucks by hitting it big in the acting or modeling field, or by being an entrepreneur. The odds are against it, but it's possible.
Essential for becoming a more knowledgeable, well-rounded person? Yes. I'm struck by the number of Americans who seem incapable of discussing issues without getting angry at different viewpoints, or because they're ignorant of facts and of the ways to discuss and learn different subjects. These are things a person can (should) learn in college.
Essential for exposing a person to different subjects and enhancing a person's life to become richer? I think so. I was an English major but had to take some basic sciences. I thought it was silly at the time, but now I'm glad. I learned a lot about basic science, genetics, data, lab work. I learned some lingo and the way scientists think and speak and write. It's helped me understand scientific articles I may read from time to time.
Just a basic college degree from a state college will enhance a person's life, and help with employment opportunities. It also helps make a person more interesting, IMO, having been exposed to various subjects. Of course, a person can become self-taught, to do these things (except for helping w/employment), but most people don't do that and wouldn't know how or have the discipline to do it.
I mean it is essential if you want to do certain professions...like become a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer or Scientist, but it is certainly not essential or required in all professions. You can pursue many careers that don't need or require college....like being a plumber, a mechanic, a barber etc.
I didn't go to college. Neither did my Mom. (I hated school and couldn't wait to graduate High School!)
My Husband, My Dad, My Son did attend college.
Depends on what profession/occupation you chose to pursue.
A personal chose.
Although, now looking back I don't think getting a better education is ever really wasted.
(Except for maybe art majors!)<And maybe sometimes not even then!
Why do people give a crap how a job is 'looked at' or 'look down at' manual labor? I mean, I've got a.. Quasi-nephew who, once out of high school, got a job as a groundskeeper at a golf course/country club. He's now, some 8 years later, the head groundskeeper (Whatever the job title is) making.. Decent money. I mean, he's not going out an buying a Porsche or anything, but he's making more than enough to survive. He'd be solidly in 'middle class' territory.
I talked with him this past weekend. And asked him how he liked what he was doing.. He said he loved it, but that he did get people who kinda looked sideways at him for what he did. I told him.. Who cares? And broke out the old saying.. If you're doing something you love, you're not working. You're getting paid for doing something you enjoy.
Otherwise.. just to tie this and the golf course all together.. Remember.. "The world needs ditch diggers, too, Danny!"
And. This is really the point here. The college degree doesn't mean you're any smarter than anyone else. Many times, you're not. But, that degree (or whatever you're received from studies) is a foot in the door.
If you can get the foot in another way.. That's usually fine. Most every employer would rather have someone with experience than just a piece of paper. But, if it comes down to the choice between two someones with no/limited experience and one of them has that piece of paper.. That piece of paper means alot!
Dating. More women get degrees than men and a lot of women are resistant to what they see as dating-down educationally. You can overcome that by being personable, or good looking, or high earning, etc. etc., but all other things held equal it's easier to date as a man if you are well educated. If you're a woman or already married, agreed on the who cares attitude but if you're a single young man there's definitely something to be said about it being easier to get a date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shallow Hal
Excellent post. Actually there are a lot of businesses who are willing to pay while you train in the areas of plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc. And they pay well. They are beating the bushes for folks. These business owners state how perplexed they are that some millennials and gen Z would rather design websites for very low pay...
Young people taking low pay web dev jobs over higher paid trade positions is rational from multiple viewpoints. Software engineering pays really, really well and if you can't get into it directly web dev is experience that gives you an edge in trying to break in. I know a lot of people (myself included) who took crappy low paid work more adjacent to the actual good jobs they wanted to break into over more pleasant and/or higher earning alternatives in the short term and for most it played out over the long term. Secondly, if you are artsy and value wanting to do something involving visual design over cash, web dev is a way to do that without being completely impoverished.
One thing a college degree shows about a person is that he/she can pursue and finish a goal requiring a certain mix of subjects over a period of several years. It shows perseverance. 90% of doing a good job and being successful in all sorts of relationships is just showing up when you're supposed to.
It also helps with learning communication skills...grammar & punctuation. I've noticed how grammar & punctuation these days is pitiful. Even news headlines or articles will occasionally have bad grammar, misspellings, improper punctuation. This is really high school stuff, but since so many don't learn these things in high school, college students will often get dinged if they make basic errors in papers. Good communication and writing skills are required, or desired, in many vocations and professions.
This is in addition to making a person more well-rounded and knowledgeable, and learning the ability to discuss various subjects with others without animosity or anger, as I mentioned in my post above.
One thing a college degree shows about a person is that he/she can pursue and finish a goal requiring a certain mix of subjects over a period of several years. It shows perseverance. 90% of doing a good job and being successful in all sorts of relationships is just showing up when you're supposed to.
It also helps with learning communication skills...grammar & punctuation. I've noticed how grammar & punctuation these days is pitiful. Even news headlines or articles will occasionally have bad grammar, misspellings, improper punctuation. This is really high school stuff, but since so many don't learn these things in high school, college students will often get dinged if they make basic errors in papers. Good communication and writing skills are required, or desired, in many vocations and professions.
This is in addition to making a person more well-rounded and knowledgeable, and learning the ability to discuss various subjects with others without animosity or anger, as I mentioned in my post above.
I'm in a niche, highly specialized field so I have a masters degree in that field. I'm also a manager so I hire people occasionally and I'm always training subordinates. For kids fresh out of college/entry level, I don't care that much about what courses you took or even what your degree is in.
Can you write well? Can you give a professional presentation? Can you take a bunch of different data points and produce a coherent set of findings from it? If you graduated with a 4-year degree and you can't do those things then you wasted your money.
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