Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Many people have stated that our alliance with Israel is based upon the fact that they are Western and to some extent that they are "white." Putting aside the fact that many Israelis are of Middle Eastern origin and some are black, i.e. the Falashas of Ethiopian descent, Israel is a major, probably indispensable Western asset.
Israel is vital to U.S. and overall Western interests in ways that may not be totally obvious. If you are familiar with WW II history, Hitler controlled Europe to the Atlantic Ocean. Spain and Portugal were "neutral in favor of the Axis." Italy was separated from most of Europe by the Alps, and in any event was not conquered until sometime in late 1943 or early 1944.
The only usable avenues of attack to regain Europe was on the beaches of France; Normandy and/or Calais. The battle to make a beachhead was a bloodbath. Israel is a giant "Normandy" in the Middle East, a fraught and unstable area. Should the West need to enter the Middle East militarily, Israel is the only country that, as a stable democracy, that can be counted on as a springboard. That is why some Arab countries and groups want Israel out so desperately. Knocking off Israel knocks the West out of a large chunk of the world.
During the Obama years, his approach was that there is really only one world and that no country's military should dominate. A beautiful dream and a recipe for chaos. I feel that most Presidents and especially their Defense Departments understood the essential role Israel played. The State Department, in general, has considered Israel to be an obstacle to peace. Over the years, during the Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II, Clinton and Trump years (Ford and Carter were decidedly of two minds, as was Obama, and Eisenhower was hostile to Israel) the U.S. has been pro-Israel or neutral in favor of Israel.
I consider that we should be allied to Israel both as based on ideological similarities, i.e. it's a democracy, and for strategic purposes.
I think a correct way to put it is that: Israel is of some strategic value to the USA.
However, the USA is an ally of Israel for a combination of reasons. I would list those reasons as such:
1. Israel is an ally in a hostile region of the world.
2. Israel is a democracy and shares certain values with America.
3. Israel's military and intelligence services provide useful information to the United States.
4. Israel has a modern hi-tech economy that renders it a valuable trade partner for being such a small country.
5. This is the most complicated reason of all, but is very real: The USA recognized after World War II that some deemed a Jewish homeland essential as a guarantee of safety to Jews around the world. As part of that recognition, we supported the creation of Israel by the United Nations in 1948. We have provided economic and military assistance to Israel since as part of that commitment.
However, I find a series of misconceptions and false premises in your statement. The USA has other reliable allies in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia has allowed American forces on its soil. Kuwait allows American forces on its soil. Turkey belongs to NATO and has allowed American troops and missiles in their country. These countries would probably furnish us a sufficient platform to fight anywhere in the Middle East. These countries have a huge interest in selling oil to the western world. They don't want trouble with America.
I think the Arab countries--on the whole--are slowly coming around when it comes to Israel. Israel has diplomatic recognition from Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey. Progress on the Palestinian question could get Israel relations with a dozen or more Arab and Muslim countries. Even without that, it may happen anyway. The Gulf Arab states want to move forward and that is clear.
You and I will never agree on the impact of the Obama presidency. I view him as making the first serious attempt in years at trying to resolve the Israeli Palestinian problems. Ultimately, that effort failed for a variety of reasons: A hard line Israeli Prime Minister; a PLO that wasn't willing to make enough concessions; and inability to use economic or other leverage to push the two groups to find a solution.
Having said all this though, I want to applaud you for writing an intelligent and provocative post. I see too few of those here on CDF.
However, I find a series of misconceptions and false premises in your statement. The USA has other reliable allies in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia has allowed American forces on its soil. Kuwait allows American forces on its soil. Turkey belongs to NATO and has allowed American troops and missiles in their country. These countries would probably furnish us a sufficient platform to fight anywhere in the Middle East. These countries have a huge interest in selling oil to the western world. They don't want trouble with America.
Thank you for a constructive post but each of those countries could go durka-durka with a single bullet shot. And their are plenty of those. More profoundly, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait may destabilize in a continued environment of low oil prices. There is less money to go around to feed the creature comforts of the numerous sheiks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I think the Arab countries--on the whole--are slowly coming around when it comes to Israel. Israel has diplomatic recognition from Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey. Progress on the Palestinian question could get Israel relations with a dozen or more Arab and Muslim countries. Even without that, it may happen anyway. The Gulf Arab states want to move forward and that is clear.
The governments may be for reason of common enemies, i.e. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." All of the governments you listed are fragiel
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
You and I will never agree on the impact of the Obama presidency. I view him as making the first serious attempt in years at trying to resolve the Israeli Palestinian problems. Ultimately, that effort failed for a variety of reasons: A hard line Israeli Prime Minister; a PLO that wasn't willing to make enough concessions; and inability to use economic or other leverage to push the two groups to find a solution.
Quite true that we will never agree on this. And Obama showed his cynicism by allowing the passage of and perhaps facilitating a hostile U.N. Security Council resolution in this lame duck period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
Having said all this though, I want to applaud you for writing an intelligent and provocative post. I see too few of those here on CDF.
you don't need Israel to do that. Turkey is a NATO ally up north. you have bases in Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia to stockpile weapons if you want to
Having Turkey in NATO is like having the mafia in the police department. Turkey is no friend to the west.
Having Turkey in NATO is like having the mafia in the police department. Turkey is no friend to the west.
I couldn't agree more. Turkey was put into NATO to harass Russia's southern border. It's usefulness as an ally is over. If it ever really had any. JFK in any event surrendered that usefulness when he pulled the missiles from Turkey as part of his cave-in to Russia during the Cuba Missile Crisis.
Israel is very small country with small population. they don't have oil to sell and their market is very small.
How incredibly simplistic. Is that what you consider the moving force for importance?
Let me just add that Israel has shared significant amounts of intelligence with the United States about issues in the most volatile parts of the world.
would you rather let Turkey in Russia's orbit? or Egypt?
they may not be really be pro-west but you want them in your corner
now compare that with Poland? or those NATO allies bordering Russia? do they offer strategic advantage like Turkey and Egypt?
Arguably Poland et. al. being in NATO diminishes Turkey's importance. The apparently permanent status of Erdogen as ruler, at least until he dies, shows just how unreliable Turkey is. The guy is either evil or crazy. Better to have democracies such as Israel or quasi-democracies such as Poland and Hungary as allies and NATO members than a renegade republic like Turkey.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
