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Not everyone has the aptitude, opportunity, or skillset to move into higher skilled, degreed, middle class to upper middle class paying occupations or trades. That's just the reality.
The problem is, we long ago shipped many manufacturing jobs away overseas for which those with this lower skills set could work hard at and still support themselves and a family, even in very modest means. Service industry jobs, such as those that generally employ people at minimum wages, largely took their place. The idea that "burger flipper" jobs are just for Johnny who is in high school and saving for his first car, or Jimmy who is simply working his way through college, is from another economic time.
We can call on companies with leadership making salaries in the millions, and often, billions, to pay these lower level workers better wages and benefits, or we will just continue to subsidize themselves with our taxes through social service benefits, like we are doing now.
What are you talking about? States can set (and enforce) their state minimum wage at whatever level they choose, even in the complete absence of a federal minimum wage.
What are you talking about? In the absence of a federal minimum wage law, how would low wage states “undermine the labor markets of other states in the USA”?
Originally posted by Suppposn: “… If there were no federal minimum rate, state's would find it extremely less to feasible to enforce a rate that would effectively offer some financial protection to their wage dependent families. ...”.
TaxPhd, what may be legally attempted, may not necessarily be financially feasible. You do understand the difference?
Originally posted by Suppposn: “…The federal minimum wage rate (to some extent) prevents lower wage states from undermining the labor markets of other states in the USA. ...”.
TaxPhd, you believe the products and services provided by enterprises paying “decent wages” can compete with enterprises located in states where cheaper child labor, or prison labor, or any other extremely lower paid workers are commonly employed? Respectfully, Supposn
Not knowing what that means is a bit of a problem for someone that believes they’re in a position to lecture us about topics in economics.
TaxPhd, I'm unfamiliar with the term. Now (after an internet search), I know I've witnessed general “natural market clearing wage rates” occurring in the USA for a duration of less than 4 years during my lifetime thus far; I'm an old man. I doubt if it ever generally occurred in the USA prior to my lifetime. If you believe that economic condition is generally germane to most, rather than some specific categories of jobs, and thus germane to our discussion of minimum wage rates, make your argument.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
They are absolutely “artificial” in that they are magically created out of thin air without regards to actual market conditions and economic principles.
TaxPhd, minimum wage rates are real factors critically affecting all other lower wage rates, and higher rates less substantially. If you believe otherwise, make your argument. Respectfully, Supposn
TaxPhd, A market's minimum wage rate's an indefinite, (if there's no definite), effectively enforced minimum rate. A government's definite minimum rate is applicable to almost all employers and jobs in the USA. That minimum's applicable to even the least inconvenient or challenging tasks or jobs, performed by even the least desirable or capable employee.
There are factors determining jobs' wage rates and no less than other factors, government's definite minimum rate is among those factors. Jobs wage rates are affected by the minimum rate and are not “artificial” rates.
Increases of prices both contribute and are due to the U.S. dollar's reduced purchasing power.
Few if any credible economists are advocating enterprises be prohibited from increasing prices. Why should U.S. governments not annually adjust their minimum wage rates to be reconciled with the dollar's purchasing power?
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
... I’m sure that must have made sense to you when you wrote it, but it comes across as a Joe Biden-esque, meaningless word salad.
TaxPhd, I do suppose I'm a poor writer; I consider my youngest son to be a good writer and he'd concur with your criticism if he read this response. But I cannot provide further explanations if you don't point out what it is that confuses you. Respectfully, Supposn
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
EDS, your comments, “fewer than 1% of US hourly workers over 25 earn minimum wage wherever they are”, and “... C. A melange of the above already occurs as so few are actually paid statutory minimum wages” are inconsequential to the discussion of minimum wage rates because those rates directly or indirectly critically affect all, not just the precise lower wage rates, rather than the precise federal or states' minimum rates. They to some considerable extents affect all, or almost all rates at or below USA's or our states' median rates.
The extents of employees benefits due to their governments' minimum hourly rate laws, are inversely related to the differences between their paid rates and the legal minimum rate. Those paid more proportionally benefit less, those paid less proportionally benefit more. But minimum wage laws aren't detrimental to any employees and their dependents.
Respectfully, Supposn
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
That is factually incorrect, and you need to stop saying it.
TaxPhd it's a logical opinion. If you believe the minimum wage rate's somehow detrimental to our nation's employees or to their dependents, make your case. Respectfully, Supposn
TaxPhd, minimum wage rates are real factors critically affecting all other lower wage rates, and higher rates less substantially. If you believe otherwise, make your argument. Respectfully, Supposn
Not at all. The true minimal wage is always zero.
If I want to flip burgers for $20 an hour, but someone else is willing to flip burgers for $5 an hour, why would a company pick me over him? Furthermore, if the government magically decides that the minimal wage is $25 an hour, then the company will simply cut my hours and raise prices for the consumer. And if that doesn't work, they'll just fire me. Oh and the supervisors and managers will also demand a pay raise once the burger flipper gets a pay raise, leading to even more higher prices for the consumer.
Business owners are not going to take pay cuts or profit cuts over minimal wage hikes. The consumer is going to pay with higher prices and the minimal wage employee is going to pay with shorter hours or more firings.
Quote:
“Unfortunately, the real minimum wage is always zero, regardless of the laws, and that is the wage that many workers receive in the wake of the creation or escalation of a government-mandated minimum wage, because they lose their jobs or fail to find jobs when they enter the labor force. Making it illegal to pay less than a given amount does not make a worker’s productivity worth that amount—and, if it is not, that worker is unlikely to be employed.” - Thomas Sowell
Minimum wage was never supposed to be that which improves life, it was supposed to be 'utilized' as work place experience and for some pocket cash. This was my own experiences and observations. If you wanted to 'improve' your life, you got a real job. I do not recall ever seeing anyone who drove a car, had a home or rented, or was married with a minimum wage job.
I do remember functioning alcoholics, parolees, old people, Christmas part timers who had other jobs, and kids (me) in the mix.
My minimum wage jobs were retail, gas station, and janitor.
Not everyone has the aptitude, opportunity, or skillset to move into higher skilled, degreed, middle class to upper middle class paying occupations or trades. That's just the reality.
The problem is, we long ago shipped many manufacturing jobs away overseas for which those with this lower skills set could work hard at and still support themselves and a family, even in very modest means. Service industry jobs, such as those that generally employ people at minimum wages, largely took their place. The idea that "burger flipper" jobs are just for Johnny who is in high school and saving for his first car, or Jimmy who is simply working his way through college, is from another economic time.
We can call on companies with leadership making salaries in the millions, and often, billions, to pay these lower level workers better wages and benefits, or we will just continue to subsidize themselves with our taxes through social service benefits, like we are doing now.
There are plenty of manufacturing jobs in the USA. There are even job openings. I have friends and family in various manufacturing jobs. One is a manager and and he told me he has a problem highering for the lower level jobs. He gets ghosted on job interviews. If they do show they miss work and don't last. Those family members are homeowners supporting their families but are feeling the pressure of inflated prices.
Companies won't eat the higher personnel costs if you enforce a higher minimum wage. They'll pass that onto the consumer.
I don’t understand why there are so many parents, family, friends, etc. that are willing to support these people who simply choose not to work. There’s no way that model is sustainable. . .
I agree. My parents didn't "push me out the door", so to speak, but they made it clear that they expected me to "grow up", and become self sufficient. Shortly after my 19th birthday, one of our neighbors approached me with an "opportunity". The corporation he worked for was looking ahead, and wanted to get some skilled people in place, to take on positions that would be opening up as older staff members would retire.
Therefore, the company was starting up an apprentice program that included on the job training, backed up by work related, college courses. Our neighbor thought that I'd be a good candidate for this deal. Coincidentally (ha-ha), my dad thought it would be a good deal for me, too. He suggested, in gentle but serious terms, that I should give it a shot, so I did. Wound up working for that business for 37 years, and made a good living....
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
Who is being subsidized?
How about those in "section 8" housing, and/or those collecting food stamps. or those whose children are being given 2 meals a day, while at school???
Think that those programs aren't subsidies??
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