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Well, are you thinking of the puppy as a product or a living being?
This is another discussion entirely, but for the sake of this argument lets think of the puppy as an animal (which it is, against popular belief), like a cow, or horse, or alligator.
So what is pet quality then? A substandard dog (could be looks, health reasons, anything) that the breeder believes should not reproduce, but has no problem selling? come on now!
And yes, shouldn't all dogs (at the minimum) meet the breed standard, and shouldn't that be what breeders are striving for? Why produce and sell a dog that doesn't fit the standard?
That's why there are spay/neuter contracts on these dogs. It makes a great pet, but is not fit to reproduce. Unless backyard breeders and puppy mills are shut down, you will always have substandard dogs that don't represent the breed the way they should. But given how pet stores are still thriving and how the animals shelters are beyond capacity, that doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
Now, if we only had such stringent standards for humans, we can weed out many diseases. Most of the people reproducing really shouldn't be. I find it ironic that we are so worried about dogs living up to some standard, when the average lifespan of a dog is anywhere from 8-15 years, depending on the breed, yet humans live much longer and continue to reproduce and give birth to offspring that are genetically unfit. Let's put these restrictions on humans and see how it goes.
Oh, and these pedigree show dogs you speak of, well, they're not all they're hyped up to be. Read this article. It might change the way you look at show dogs. Not exactly the best of breed, now are they?
That's why there are spay/neuter contracts on these dogs. It makes a great pet, but is not fit to reproduce. Unless backyard breeders and puppy mills are shut down, you will always have substandard dogs that don't represent the breed the way they should. But given how pet stores are still thriving and how the animals shelters are beyond capacity, that doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
Now, if we only had such stringent standards for humans, we can weed out many diseases. Most of the people reproducing really shouldn't be. I find it ironic that we are so worried about dogs living up to some standard, when the average lifespan of a dog is anywhere from 8-15 years, depending on the breed, yet humans live much longer and continue to reproduce and give birth to offspring that are genetically unfit. Let's put these restrictions on humans and see how it goes.
Im sorry, I must be living in Bizzarro world, did you just compare the abortion of a living fetus to that of a dog culled? That takes the cake right there!
So what is pet quality then? A substandard dog (could be looks, health reasons, anything) that the breeder believes should not reproduce, but has no problem selling? come on now!
And yes, shouldn't all dogs (at the minimum) meet the breed standard, and shouldn't that be what breeders are striving for? Why produce and sell a dog that doesn't fit the standard?
what do you consider "substandard"? the current breed standards are, IMO, crap in many cases and often detrimental to many breeds b/c breeders try harder to adhere to them and end up producing dogs that may meet standards and win dog shows, but are unhealthy and can no longer to the job they were originally bred to do. perfect example is the GSD, many of which suffer from hip dysplasia b/c breeders went overboard w/ that "slope back" look. check out "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" on youtube to see how far breeding to standards have gone and the detriment in has caused in many breeds
ETA: links to the documentary on youtube. check out the issues "breeding to standard" have caused in many breeds, including GSDs:
a dog not meeting these standards can just be a dog w/ 5% too much white on its coat, or a dog 2in over the maximum allowed for the breed, or a dog w/ the wrong color coat or eyes. maybe its a border collie w/o the extreme drive needed to herd sheep but has the calm temperament needed to become a therapy dog. it can even just be dog that meets all the cosmetic and temperament standards of the breed but just doesn't have the right temperament to be shown. my purebred shih tzu didn't meet AKC breed standards (too "leggy" apparently) but that didn't take away from her value has a pet. a dog not meeting some silly breed standard doesn't mean that that dog can't make an excellent pet, hence why breeders sell these dogs as pet quality dogs w/ a neuter contract. not everyone needs a show quality dog.
for these reasons, I disagree w/ culling. if a breeders needs to cull/kill most of his litter for whatever reason, that breeder shouldn't be breeding. I actually wonder what the GSD breeder code of ethics say about culling/killing pups; your friend could be in violation of them
Last edited by eevee; 03-31-2009 at 11:50 AM..
Reason: wrong name, added links
I am not sure where I stand on the culling issue as I do understand why it is done by some breeders but I am upset at the methods they too often use. Several years back an aussie breeder in Northern California had a litter from two merles bred together which produced 10 puppies. There were 5 homozygous merles in the litter! ( They usually have alot of white in the coat and are deaf or blind or major vision issues or both). Well at 5 weeks of age the breeder was going to drown the puppies which to me seems like a cruel method. A neighbor found out and saved the 5 pups and contacted what was then Aussie lads a rescue group in Phoenix.
A call went out for help to get the pups to Phoenix .Because this group had helped me by giving me alot of info on Phoenix ( a homozygous merle that I rescued) I got the call. With help of the flyball community the pups were brought to me in So. California where my mom fostered them for a week then a friend and I drove them to Phoenix. They all found homes and despite the death of one a few months later ( probably for some genetic defect) they have all made wonderful pets and are dearly loved. So yes there are places for those pups that are not "perfect".
I can say Phoenix is probably one of the sweetest dogs I have ever met and she is always happy . She is deaf and has limited vision but she does see enough to know hand signals and even knows alot of tricks. Most people that meet her do not know she is not normal. They say " what weird eyes" but unless I tell them they assume she is 100% normal.
The whole issue of homozygous merles makes me mad as it can be prevented by not breeding merle coated dogs to merle coated dogs instead of culling pups by some cruel method. So I think Breeders need to be a bit more responsible and not see culling as an out for their lack of responsibility.
In Phoenix's case I am glad she was not culled as I am glad that the 5 pups were saved too. A dog does not have to be perfect to be a good companion.
So what is pet quality then? A substandard dog (could be looks, health reasons, anything) that the breeder believes should not reproduce, but has no problem selling? come on now!
And yes, shouldn't all dogs (at the minimum) meet the breed standard, and shouldn't that be what breeders are striving for? Why produce and sell a dog that doesn't fit the standard?
Because the so-called "mutt" can make an excellent companion, helpmate, service dog or what have you for whomever wants and cares for it. The so-called "Breeds" of dogs are simply different types based on collections of traits for looks, performance or size. There is one species of domestic dog and show standard dog breeders do not dictate the definition of that. I have had several dogs through my lifetime, all but the present one were mutts. I enjoyed and cared for all of them through their full lifetimes. My present purebred was chosen for predictable performance on the hunting field and guaranteed temperament. That is one of the purposes for purebreds: predictability of traits.
Because the so-called "mutt" can make an excellent companion, helpmate, service dog or what have you for whomever wants and cares for it. The so-called "Breeds" of dogs are simply different types based on collections of traits for looks, performance or size. There is one species of domestic dog and show standard dog breeders do not dictate the definition of that. I have had several dogs through my lifetime, all but the present one were mutts. I enjoyed and cared for all of them through their full lifetimes. My present purebred was chosen for predictable performance on the hunting field and guaranteed temperament. That is one of the purposes for purebreds: predictability of traits.
And how many "pet quality" dogs would you suggest have ended up at the pound?
The word "mutt" used to mean something, but nowadays with designer dogs sprouting out the yang (yorkie poo, labradoodles, etc) a mutt is now called "hybrid"! Some mutts could cost you a pretty penny.
My questions is, why sell "pet quality" dogs with obvious issues such as looks, health, temperment, etc and not cull them from birth?
If these traits are known at a young age, you can cull, why wait until 2 years old to get a Baer test to realize the all white boxer is deaf, why not cull at birth from obvious birth defects? Why wait for the pound to "cull" at 2 years of age when the "pet quality" owner decides he doesn't want a dog that can't hear?
And as I earlier said, my friend did not cull for cosmetic reasons, he would cull the runt, and other pups that seemed to lack the nerve needed to work. It was a time when all dogs had a job to do, the idea of a dog as a "pet" is a fairly new one IMO (unless you were rich, and even then poodles were catching rats), you fed a dog beacue he helped catch you dinner! So why keep a dog around that can do what it was put on earth to do?
[quote=
a dog not meeting these standards can just be a dog w/ 5% too much white on its coat, or a dog 2in over the maximum allowed for the breed, or a dog w/ the wrong color coat or eyes. maybe its a border collie w/o the extreme drive needed to herd sheep but has the calm temperament needed to become a therapy dog. [/quote]
So do you think that dog should reproduce?
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