Are Gray Wolves Back? A Puppy Sighting In Northwest Colorado Is The Best Clue Yet (Gunnison: campers, compensation)

[otowi]

Originally Posted by Westerner92

I think the question comes down to: Do you believe humans should be the only apex predators in Colorado? I tend to think that if they were native before European settlement and can still thrive, then they should be in said area.

I agree. Whenever something that is naturally part of the ecosystem is removed, it upsets the ecosystem balance and can have all sorts of unintended effects. A documentary once claimed that when wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, it changed even the rivers, which had become altered by unabated beaver activity, and changing the rivers back the way they had been had all sorts of positive effects for other flora and fauna as well. It shouldn't, in my opinion, be just about what we think is good for us (humans). A lot of times we're wrong and when we meddle with nature we often just make things worse (forest fires burning too hot etc. now). So if we can push things back in a direction of how it was before we messed with it by a reintroduction, I think it is usually the right thing to do.

[Phil P]

Originally Posted by otowi

I agree. Whenever something that is naturally part of the ecosystem is removed, it upsets the ecosystem balance and can have all sorts of unintended effects. A documentary once claimed that when wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, it changed even the rivers, which had become altered by unabated beaver activity, and changing the rivers back the way they had been had all sorts of positive effects for other flora and fauna as well. It shouldn't, in my opinion, be just about what we think is good for us (humans). A lot of times we're wrong and when we meddle with nature we often just make things worse (forest fires burning too hot etc. now). So if we can push things back in a direction of how it was before we messed with it by a reintroduction, I think it is usually the right thing to do.

Well, they've certainly advertised the positive outcomes ecologically, though the other side of dangers to humans and dogs hasn't been adequately fleshed out to the public IMO. Mountain lions are also an apex predator, but they engage much less.

Humans can make things worse, but they can also make things better too. I think it's incorrect to assume that any human involvement is bad. Nature has a balance, but nature will always be in a balance, the feedback loops just adjust according to whatever the situation is. There's no 'ideal state' to look back to; the mountains of Colorado aren't in a steady state, they were all ice covered not too long ago in the past. We took the moose out of Colorado, then we put them back, and they are thriving again.

[Westerner92]

Originally Posted by Phil P

Humans can make things worse, but they can also make things better too. I think it's incorrect to assume that any human involvement is bad. Nature has a balance, but nature will always be in a balance, the feedback loops just adjust according to whatever the situation is. There's no 'ideal state' to look back to; the mountains of Colorado aren't in a steady state, they were all ice covered not too long ago in the past. We took the moose out of Colorado, then we put them back, and they are thriving again.

Philosophically speaking, there is no "ideal state" of nature, but the vast majority of ecosystems are unable to adapt at the pace that humans have altered the environment since the Industrial Revolution. Even if we were to pretend that fossil fuels weren't fundamentally altering the carbon and nitrogen cycles that have been in equilibrium since the Mesozoic Era, the ecological effects of humans' simultaneous destruction of habitats around the world have a latency of decades to hundreds of millennia. It's unlikely that the feedback loops you allude to will be beneficial. Reducing biodiversity makes all life more vulnerable. Trying to restore the biodiversity of ecosystems to their pre-Industrial Revolution state will give them and humanity alike the best chance at resilience.

[pikabike]

Originally Posted by Westerner92

I think the question comes down to: Do you believe humans should be the only apex predators in Colorado? I tend to think that if they were native before European settlement and can still thrive, then they should be in said area.

I agree. We have mountain lions in our area, as we did where we used to live in the Front Range. Some people were/are anxious to kill any that are around, out of paranoia about one grabbing a kid or pet. Well, are the kds and pets roaming around from dusk to dawn? Without adult guardians? Hmmm.

Livestock are a different story, because obviously they don’t come indoors to sleep, though shelter, fencing, and guard dogs could deter predation.

We would like to camp right on our own land, but I ditched that idea after thinking about it further. The lions are active at different times than we are, so that’s good enough for us. We can hike while they snooze. Coexistence.

[Sumerian_Summer]

Apex predators are a part of the natural world and should have their space in nature.
People out camping or hiking should always carry guns in case they have to shoot one in the event that they're attacked.
Common sense.

Losing livestock to predator attacks is just a part of the business, get insurance.

[NDak15]

Originally Posted by Phil P

I'm split on the issue. On one hand, they do serve an ecological function in balance. On the other hand, I've heard from relatives in MN and WI that they are not as human avoiding as advertised. I had a cousin who was in a tree stand with 3 of them circling underneath for a couple hours. They don't run away when humans shout back. I'd be more scared to leave smaller children outside without active adult supervision.

Unless you're living in the wilderness the chances of your kids getting snatched by wolves is pretty slim. I would be willing to be this incident your cousin saw is an isolated incident and the fact remains there have been very very few attacks on people by wolves.

Originally Posted by Sumerian_Summer

Apex predators are a part of the natural world and should have their space in nature.
People out camping or hiking should always carry guns in case they have to shoot one in the event that they're attacked.
Common sense.

Losing livestock to predator attacks is just a part of the business, get insurance.

Bingo!

[Phil P]

Originally Posted by Westerner92

Philosophically speaking, there is no "ideal state" of nature, but the vast majority of ecosystems are unable to adapt at the pace that humans have altered the environment since the Industrial Revolution. Even if we were to pretend that fossil fuels weren't fundamentally altering the carbon and nitrogen cycles that have been in equilibrium since the Mesozoic Era, the ecological effects of humans' simultaneous destruction of habitats around the world have a latency of decades to hundreds of millennia. It's unlikely that the feedback loops you allude to will be beneficial. Reducing biodiversity makes all life more vulnerable. Trying to restore the biodiversity of ecosystems to their pre-Industrial Revolution state will give them and humanity alike the best chance at resilience.

No, I'm not disagreeing there, habitat destruction is not a plus to nature. I'm more referring to the managed national forest vs wilderness argument, where the habitat is largely there, but one is human impacted the other is not. I don't think one can say the wilderness is a wholesale "healthier" environment.

Originally Posted by NDak15

Unless you're living in the wilderness the chances of your kids getting snatched by wolves is pretty slim. I would be willing to be this incident your cousin saw is an isolated incident and the fact remains there have been very very few attacks on people by wolves.

This was all in Price County Wisconsin, so a bit out in the boonies, but not in the edge of a wilderness somewhere. It's hard to say though, there isn't THAT much data as the wolves haven't been around that long up there in MN / WI and there aren't that many people wandering around up there. If they aren't reintroduced this year, chances are they could come in on their own or they could be reintroduced later, but if they are introduced, then it is unlikely that they would take them out if there were problems.

I may end up voting for it, but it's not an easy yes or no ballot measure.

[smith99]

Wolves are already in Colorado. I used to live in a remote area south of Gunnison, and in that area it was common knowledge that wolves were around. I have seen them and heard them in the past year. I am really not sure why this has not been looked in to more, and I am sure that there are wolves in other areas like the San Juans or North Park Area. It would not take much for researchers to make the "shocking discovery" that there are wolves in this area. Just go out camping any given night and you will hear them. There are a lot of very controversial politics surrounding wolves and wolf "reintroduction" in CO, but the fact is that they are already there...

[otowi]

Originally Posted by smith99

Wolves are already in Colorado. I used to live in a remote area south of Gunnison, and in that area it was common knowledge that wolves were around. I have seen them and heard them in the past year. I am really not sure why this has not been looked in to more, and I am sure that there are wolves in other areas like the San Juans or North Park Area. It would not take much for researchers to make the "shocking discovery" that there are wolves in this area. Just go out camping any given night and you will hear them. There are a lot of very controversial politics surrounding wolves and wolf "reintroduction" in CO, but the fact is that they are already there...

I think they say those are coyotes not wolves...

[Colorado Rambler]

Originally Posted by otowi

I think they say those are coyotes not wolves...

I rather think those are coyotes, as well. One of the pleasures of camping is that the coyotes will sing you to sleep. I also hear the coyotes all the time here in the rural Four Corners. I live on a hay farm and once I saw two coyotes out in the fields, playing and jumping from one bale of hay to the other. They were beautiful animals, but they were not wolves.