Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I went to Hanging Lake once, maybe 15 years ago. It was nice to have so much of the place to ourselves at the time. So sad to hear it has been completely overrun by litterbugs, social media opportunists and just straight up morons. So yeah I support limits in this treasure. Of course that just means the morons will go somewhere else. But whatcha gonna do? You can't fix stupid. (But you can regulate it).
It's not just at Hanging Lake. Last June we had a couple different incidents at Colorado National Monument. Every June Grand Junction hosts JUCO (Junior College World Series) In two different cases kids from competing schools got caught carving into rocks and spray painting graffiti.
Last summer I had friends drive in from Omaha and I gave them the nickel tour of the Four Corners region. We got to the Grand Canyon and noticed a couple raising hell with a National Parks employee about the graffiti. Looking at it I saw about a couple dozen good size rocks marked up with felt tip markers that were located near one of the information booths where you buy books, dvd's, etc regarding the area. The employee told the couple that they have crews to take care of graffiti problems but that they are short staffed and under funded.
It's not just at Hanging Lake. Last June we had a couple different incidents at Colorado National Monument. Every June Grand Junction hosts JUCO (Junior College World Series) In two different cases kids from competing schools got caught carving into rocks and spray painting graffiti.
Last summer I had friends drive in from Omaha and I gave them the nickel tour of the Four Corners region. We got to the Grand Canyon and noticed a couple raising hell with a National Parks employee about the graffiti. Looking at it I saw about a couple dozen good size rocks marked up with felt tip markers that were located near one of the information booths where you buy books, dvd's, etc regarding the area. The employee told the couple that they have crews to take care of graffiti problems but that they are short staffed and under funded.
Glen Canyon NRA, aka Lake Powell, regularly holds two kinds of volunteer cleanup events based off of houseboats. One category picks up trash. The other one cleans up graffiti. These are regular, frequent volunteer cleanup events. Sad how so much of the US public not only does not appreciate the gem that public parks are but actively destroys them, in however small the increments of destruction.
In the past year a group from Fort Lewis College (Durango) visited a local site; a woman from that allegedly-supervised official college outing graffiti’ed a rock. That one made local news but I don’t remember if she and the group leader got off with a slap on the wrist or something more meaningful.
It is definitely not a plague only at Hanging Lake, or only in CO or only in the southwest, or only in federal lands.
Glen Canyon NRA, aka Lake Powell, regularly holds two kinds of volunteer cleanup events based off of houseboats. One category picks up trash. The other one cleans up graffiti. These are regular, frequent volunteer cleanup events. Sad how so much of the US public not only does not appreciate the gem that public parks are but actively destroys them, in however small the increments of destruction.
In the past year a group from Fort Lewis College (Durango) visited a local site; a woman from that allegedly-supervised official college outing graffiti’ed a rock. That one made local news but I don’t remember if she and the group leader got off with a slap on the wrist or something more meaningful.
It is definitely not a plague only at Hanging Lake, or only in CO or only in the southwest, or only in federal lands.
I enjoy canyoneering (referring to the technical descent -- using rope, harness, etc. of canyons) and the canyoneering community can tell you plenty of horror stories of how the sandstone canyons in and around Zion National Park -- and as you mentioned, elsewhere -- have been effaced by graffiti. Whereas spray paint can be removed, scratching your name in sandstone can't, without alternating the surface.
And how many times have you hiked in aspen forests, only to see names scratched/carved in the gray bark of the trees?
People, the rule when you enter the wilderness is LNT :::: leave no trace. And how about applying that to our neighborhoods, towns, and cities?
Glen Canyon NRA, aka Lake Powell, regularly holds two kinds of volunteer cleanup events based off of houseboats. One category picks up trash. The other one cleans up graffiti. These are regular, frequent volunteer cleanup events. Sad how so much of the US public not only does not appreciate the gem that public parks are but actively destroys them, in however small the increments of destruction.
The biggest piece of graffiti in that area is the Glen Canyon dam. Maybe the group can clean that blight up. I’ll gladly participate.
The way I read this, there is a mandatory reservation/permit that will assign times and cap the number of daily visitors to 615. Current visitor numbers on peak days are over 1000.
I'd like to see limitations, permit requirements at many of these facilities and similarly, I'm all for the rate hikes at the National Parks.
With areas such as Hanging Lake, it would hopefully keep some of the riff raff out. With places like national parks, specifically RMNP, I'd like to see much less traffic within the park, which could be accomplished with other means, but perhaps rate hikes would discourage some of the horde.
I'm all for the rate hikes at the National Parks. ... it would hopefully keep some of the riff raff out. ... but perhaps rate hikes would discourage some of the horde.
I respectfully but intensely disagree with this.
I'm just as annoyed by some patrons to these places as the next person, but restricting access to the parks by drastically increasing entrance fees is a 'solution' that will only result in less fortunate Americans being unable to experience the beauty and majesty of these places.
Believe me, as someone who is lucky enough to be able to hike in remote parts of the state with ease and makes it a point to avoid hiking in the Front Range due to crowding - I get it. I understand it. And its easy to become frustrated with stereotypical college bros, rude tourists, or litter bugs. However, the National Parks do not belong to the privileged, the wealthy, or the outdoor enthusiasts - they belong to all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, our levels of experience or reverence for the outdoors, or our income levels.
The proposals to hike park entrance fees is nothing more than a ploy to reduce admission levels to justify reducing the size or eliminating some of these parks altogether to sell them off to private industry. The budget that the NPS receives is miniscule and a modest budget increase would resolve their financial issues without restricting access to the privileged few.
In terms of addressing over-crowding, I think that capping admissions and creating a reservation system would be a far better way of managing these problems. A bigger push on emphasizing leave-no-trace principles and imposing harsh fines on violators could also help.
Last edited by interloper1138; 02-20-2018 at 08:38 PM..
I'm just as annoyed by some patrons to these places as the next person, but restricting access to the parks by drastically increasing entrance fees is a 'solution' that will only result in less fortunate Americans being unable to experience the beauty and majesty of these places.
Believe me, as someone who is lucky enough to be able to hike in remote parts of the state with ease and makes it a point to avoid hiking in the Front Range due to crowding - I get it. I understand it. And its easy to become frustrated with stereotypical college bros, rude tourists, or litter bugs. However, the National Parks do not belong to the privileged, the wealthy, or the outdoor enthusiasts - they belong to all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, our levels of experience or reverence for the outdoors, or our income levels.
The proposals to hike park entrance fees is nothing more than a ploy to reduce admission levels to justify reducing the size or eliminating some of these parks altogether to sell them off to private industry. The budget that the NPS receives is miniscule and a modest budget increase would resolve their financial issues without restricting access to the privileged few.
In terms of addressing over-crowding, I think that capping admissions and creating a reservation system would be a far better way of managing these problems. A bigger push on emphasizing leave-no-trace principles and imposing harsh fines on violators could also help.
I assumed there would be many who would disagree with my comment and position regarding increased fees at national parks especially for the reason you gave and I understand your disagreement.
The mission of the National Park service isn't only to safeguard these treasures, but also to facilitate and encourage citizen involvement, education, etc. I get that, but I would honestly, and perhaps selfishly, like to see less of that and more preservation without the crowds. I believe that should include limiting visitors because as it is now in popular parks like RMNP or Yosemite, there isn't a whole lot of preservation or safeguarding going on.
I'd be open to, as you suggest, caps and reservations, but I also think increased fees can serve a purpose as well as schemes to severely limit traffic within the parks-the current shuttle system at RMNP isn't cutting it.
I am with you, I rarely visit national parks nowadays, preferring national forest and wilderness areas. Indian Peaks, particularly Brainard Lake has also become very busy, but at least it's more off the beaten path with the out of state and RV crowd, and more populated with locals. We are lucky enough to have a place at the base of the Sangres, where we spend about half our time and we do a lot of crowd-free hiking there.
I guess I would like to see natural areas managed more as natural places than as tourist traps and feel if people want to see these wonders, they should make an effort to, I don't know, hike in?! I'm pretty sure we both have similar end goals and desires for these places, but perhaps different methods of achieving them.
I'm just as annoyed by some patrons to these places as the next person, but restricting access to the parks by drastically increasing entrance fees is a 'solution' that will only result in less fortunate Americans being unable to experience the beauty and majesty of these places.
Believe me, as someone who is lucky enough to be able to hike in remote parts of the state with ease and makes it a point to avoid hiking in the Front Range due to crowding - I get it. I understand it. And its easy to become frustrated with stereotypical college bros, rude tourists, or litter bugs. However, the National Parks do not belong to the privileged, the wealthy, or the outdoor enthusiasts - they belong to all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, our levels of experience or reverence for the outdoors, or our income levels.
The proposals to hike park entrance fees is nothing more than a ploy to reduce admission levels to justify reducing the size or eliminating some of these parks altogether to sell them off to private industry. The budget that the NPS receives is miniscule and a modest budget increase would resolve their financial issues without restricting access to the privileged few.
In terms of addressing over-crowding, I think that capping admissions and creating a reservation system would be a far better way of managing these problems. A bigger push on emphasizing leave-no-trace principles and imposing harsh fines on violators could also help.
I agree with this 100%. Limit people by their motivation to get a permit, not by their ability to pay for one.
I tend to agree with interloper1138 about raising fees not being the best solution. A modest increase I might understand. But in the long run I think it is just part of an ongoing trend to not adequately fund our park system and then throw up hands. The people who want these parks in private hands would love to see people priced out of going into them so they do not see and appreciate what is going on. We need more of our poorest citizens, especially youth, in the parks experiencing and learning the value of nature - that would be good on many levels for our country. The fee increases proposed also just don't make sense in some cases. Let's say, for example, someone has a work conference in Estes Park for a weekend. Currently they could spend $20 for a single afternoon hike in RMNP. That is not cheap, but still doable for many. Raising that to $70 or so - for a single afternoon hike now we're basically shutting out everyone but locals and people who can afford the week-long vacation there. I think the permit system makes more sense, or at the very least a much more nuanced fee structure coupled with a very vigorous program of providing access for those who would otherwise be shut out by the fees - which of course would likely require a more healthy budget, which is a big part of the problem in the first place.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
