Stealthy removal on UT (Dallas, Howe: house, living in, title)

[eirenecat]

"People have been walking by these statues for decades and never saying a word about how they bothered them. No, and you know why? Because they didn't, regardless of how loud they deny that at this time. Never in my life have I ever heard one person utter one word about how oh my, they offended them. I've asked countless people if (since this has became our red hot issue) anyone of these statues had ever offended them or anyone they knew or had they ever heard anyone ever say a word about them being offensive. The answer is always NO."

I get the feeling that Lonestar2007 doesn't know or isn't friends with any black people.

[CarnivalGal]

Since I was just criticized (anonymously in a reputation comment) for not addressing inaccuracies in my earlier post, I will do so here.

Neo-nazi groups, the KKK, et al have a long history of violence. I don't think anyone will deny this. And, yes, many protesters showed up heavily armed, according to photographs from Reuters. If counter-protesters also showed up in bullet-proof vests and carrying guns, please let me know, as I have not seen any evidence of that yet. Why would they show up to a peaceful protest with body armor and guns?

As many people have pointed out, these monuments were not constructed shortly after the Civil War, but were erected during later times. These statues are more than just monuments to supporters of slavery; they represent a pride in a history of racial oppression. Let's face it, Texas hasn't exactly been at the forefront of things like desegregation and racial equality.

Getting rid of these monuments does not erase history. There is not one, single statue of Hitler in Germany. Do you think that means they all forgot about him? Do you think that means his name is still not in the history books there? Do you think people there have no idea who he was because there are no statues? It is one thing to remember history, which I agree we need to do. It's another thing entirely to honor and revere those parts of it that are shameful.

I still don't understand the protests, and I'm really not trying to be snarky at all here. This is an honest question. What exactly are they protesting? What right(s) of theirs have been infringed upon? I honestly don't get it.

[ScoPro]

Originally Posted by Trainwreck20

I would hold one of those coveted statue spots for Frank Denius, maybe:

The Official Website of the University of Texas Athletics

And one for Francia Alvarez - the Angel of Goliad - as a symbol of humanitarian values.

[ScoPro]

Originally Posted by hound 109

I agree with your take (& half of Fenves comments).


But just spit balling here as I contemplate the possible slippery slope:

- Washington owned Slaves. Is his statue next?

- The Bible discusses slavery (& is a lightning rod for some). If after lots of discussion & protests, Do we get rid of Guttenberg Bible?

- TJ slept with one of his slaves & Madison also a slave holder. Do we take remove the Declaration of Independence & the Constitution from all schoolbooks, history classes, or any other part of our reality?

Those Founding Fathers were not fighting to promote slavery and its spread, they were fighting against the lack of representation in the legislative body that ruled them. The Southern States had the proper representation in Congress that was provided them by the Constitution. Said Southern states were certainly fighting for their states rights - the right to continue their economic system based on slavery, and the ability to expand it westward.

From what Dr. Fenves says, the Confederate statues on campus will not be destroyed, but will be placed in a venue for historical purposes. The students & public will have open access, so those who wish to admire or study them will be able to continue to do so.
Conversely, the persons who are upset & offended at the sight of those statues will not have to walk in their midst while going about their daily matriculatin' bidness.
The Guttenberg Bible is in the historical archives library where it can be studied & examined by scholars, not on a pedestal monument outside.

Speaking of Bibles, I wonder if the atheists will get around to demanding the removable of the reilgious inscription above the South Mall entrance to the Tower?

However, it appears that noble passage has been ignored & trampled by many in recent political correctness movements.

[joqua]

I'm sorry, but I can't help comparing the destruction our of public statuary to the actions of ISIS in destroying centuries-old monuments considered to be invaluable artifacts from generations past. And before ISIS, there were other barbarians who found cause for defacing and destroying statuary they deemed evil, offensive or idolatry.

[Rakin]

Originally Posted by CarnivalGal

I still don't understand the protests, and I'm really not trying to be snarky at all here. This is an honest question. What exactly are they protesting? What right(s) of theirs have been infringed upon? I honestly don't get it.

That's the point, the right of speech and to protest has been infringed when they are attacked.

For years the Klan would have their minor protest, go home eat ice cream and walk their dog. No one cared and everyone ignored. Even hate speech should be protected.

[Austin97]

Originally Posted by ITO

"Do you realize that the past, starting from yesterday, has been actually abolished? If it survives anywhere, it's in a few solid objects with no words attached to them, like that lump of glass there. Already we know almost literally nothing about the Revolution and the years before the Revolution. Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don't know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event – years after it." - 1984 by George Orwell

The problem with abolishing history is that we lose it. A much better solution would have been to put up a plaque explaining the history, and adding context. Or better yet put statues of civil rights or even Union heroes near by to add context, to add conversation and balance.

However, we have become a society of babies where peoples feelings take precedent over history, over the conversation and over common sense.

History is not supposed to make you feel safe or comfortable, and if you remove it then you are not better than book burners. Orwell nailed it, and when the policial winds change again, and they will, I wonder what other parts of history we will lose.

a statue is not history. A statue is a celebration of a person. They belong in a museum, not prominently displayed on grounds completely unrelated to the civil war.

[Austin97]

Originally Posted by CarnivalGal

The counter-protesters were not react with violence. They were not the ones who drove a car into the crowd, they were not the ones who showed up with weapons or wearing protective gear. The counter-protesters were the ones who were peacefully exercising their right to free speech.

And I do not agree that it should be left up to each individual community. If we left all of these issue up to each individual community, there were still be towns in Texas that segregated schools and businesses. That is not OK.

Not exactly true.

The antifa crowd had balloons filled with rocks, urine, and feces.

t started raining balloons filled with urine, feces, paint, burning chemicals & boards with nails driven into them. Someone who had infiltrated behind Antifa's line was interviewed and said they had big coolers full of these balloons.

Being in Charlottesville Broke My Heart. It Also Filled Me With Hope.

Observing the rising battle of protest chants, two of my producers were standing on an elevated edge of the park when suddenly they were doused with a concoction of human urine and mud. It was thrown into the air over the crowd from what they think was a water bottle. They’re still unsure who threw it and who exactly was targeted.

Around the same time, a large and violent brawl broke out near the corner of East Market and 2nd Street. Standing on the hillside at the entrance to the park, we looked out over the sea of people struggling to take cover. We saw projectiles being thrown back and forth, including bottles and brown colored balloons (which another reporter told me were filled with feces).

[ScoPro]

Originally Posted by Rakin

That's the point, the right of speech and to protest has been infringed when they are attacked.

For years the Klan would have their minor protest, go home eat ice cream and walk their dog. No one cared and everyone ignored. Even hate speech should be protected.

You are correct.
The Skokie, Illinois Nazi march back in the 1960s reaffirmed their right to free speech even though it was clearly nothing but hate speech. Can't sugar coat what the repugnant KKK and white supremacist scum are all about either, but they have do that right as long as they are not advocating violence or overthrow of the government.
We are not Europe (Germany in particular) where similar speech is forbidden. They do not have 1st Amendment rights. However, on top of that they have taken it to the next level and essentially have criminalized legitimate criticism. Foo on the Euros for oppression, in the name of feeling good.

On the other side of the coin, what is ironical - the antifa thugs have become that which they think they are fighting. This ultra -extremist pc crowd is including conservative opinions to be the same as the extreme examples of the KKK & White Supremacists hate speech. Those types are nothing but poorly educated, knee-jerk, reactionary anarchists, who should be repudiated by the liberal community.

[lonestar2007]

Originally Posted by eirenecat

"People have been walking by these statues for decades and never saying a word about how they bothered them. No, and you know why? Because they didn't, regardless of how loud they deny that at this time. Never in my life have I ever heard one person utter one word about how oh my, they offended them. I've asked countless people if (since this has became our red hot issue) anyone of these statues had ever offended them or anyone they knew or had they ever heard anyone ever say a word about them being offensive. The answer is always NO."

I get the feeling that Lonestar2007 doesn't know or isn't friends with any black people.

Your feeling is off, but that's ok. Curious though, why limit it to black people?