Austin skyline -- too much, too little? (Houston, Dallas: real estate market, condos)

[deeptrance]

I'm a fan of the trend toward building a lot more residential and other density in Austin's urban core. We've got one of the most spread-out cities in the nation and that needs to be corrected, not to mention the vibrancy that has erupted in central Austin in the last 10 years with the explosion of midrise condos and the like.

Some of the arguments against this trend include:
"Austin has changed, I liked it better before"
"Nothing is affordable, only the well-off can live downtown"
"Highrises are inefficient" or "ugly" or "block the views", etc.

In spite of all the above valid complaints, I'm still strongly in favor of the densification and building-up trend downtown. Just wondering how others feel, especially if you strongly disagree with me cuz I'd be interested to learn what downsides exist that I might be ignoring.

[momof2dfw]

One of the biggest downsides is parking. If an existing building is being renovated chances are parking on site is non existent. Then the where to put some ugly parking garage downtown for this building and its tenants. Tear down another building to pave over it w/ a parking garage. Tear down buildings to pave them over w/ just a parking lot for a smaller building w/ more retail. None of those help beautify or restore the beautiful downtown areas. There is the get rid of the everyone needs a car mentality but I don't see that happening. One good reason for any city along a coastline to avoid this is Katrina and New Orleans. Now Austin is not in any danger of a hurricane but it does limit the residents when there is an emergency be it personal or widespread to seek help/shelter/evacuate.

It's a toughy for sure.

[afterglow]

I think one of our major problems around the downtown area is the congestion. If only we had another major highway going through the area, we could free up some traffic jams and allow for more people and developments.

[gigi927]

This isn't really a current downside, but condo developments are often the first to suffer in a real estate market downturn. The ones here in Phoenix are really having a hard time IMO. So if you have a glut of condo style buildings in a gentrifying downtown, and the market starts to crumble, the downtown area may cycle back in the opposite direction.

One question to ask back at you (since I'm not very familiar with the urban Austin real estate market) is what current land uses are the condos replacing - is it vacant land, former industrial/warehouse, etc? Answer to that question may help inform your original question.

I'm not really taking a stand for or against...I'll be curious to check some of the projects out as shorter term investments!

[deeptrance]

gigi, the land use being replaced is mostly crumbling parking lots, vacant lots, and some small businesses. There are gaping holes downtown, entire blocks that are basically weedy and used for parking.

Thus, as momof2 said, new parking problems arise from the density. We lose surface parking and more garages are needed. But there are never enough, so the cost of parking has gone from mostly free 15 years ago to as high as $8 per hour in the costliest downtown garages.

I love watching buildings go up and seeing a city evolve, simply for the excitement and curiosity of it. That's why I'm on this forum, I'm a nerd.

[momof2dfw]

It really is a dilema for cities that have not had a "living" downtown 24/7 in decades. Dallas has tried to get more people living downtown. To me it appeared there were more opportunities in Austin than here in Dallas w/ the school campus being right there. Yet once we get the residences in place then you have to think about all of the support businesses that are needed to help keep the people there like grocery stores. Just this week the City of Dallas council voted to give a large grant to a local business in downtown called the Uptown Market because they were having trouble staying afloat. I have not been but it looks REALLY nice w/ a large selection like a regular grocery store but more in line w/ a Central Market. Would there be enough people to keep these businesses open? Could they be located conveniently to the highrise living buildings and such? These people are still going to need some hardwares for basics so could a hardware store get enough income to stay open in such an area.

Getting the buildings for the living is just the preliminary aspect of such redevelopment. The support businesses have to be there to help attract the people too. Are cities and citizens willing to give revitilization grants or create an "enterprise zone" for these businesses?

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by momof2dfw

Getting the buildings for the living is just the preliminary aspect of such redevelopment. The support businesses have to be there to help attract the people too. Are cities and citizens willing to give revitilization grants or create an "enterprise zone" for these businesses?

Central Austin has achieved a gravitational pull that is carrying its own weight without needing much more of a shove from government incentives. Now the problem is that they can't seem to build stuff fast enough to keep up with demand! As for the support businesses, the city has planned well and every new development is designed for mixed-use with retail on the bottom floor. It looks like it's working beautifully so far and has a momentum that is accelerating.

I think Dallas is less conducive culturally to this type of development and perhaps that is why it's harder there. But I don't know --- there are a lot of HUGE differences between our cities, starting with the fact that Dallas is a REAL CITY and Austin is still relatively undeveloped in its central region. In Dallas, your stunning skyline belies the fact that all those gleaming buildings were constructed for commuters. Just like Houston, downtown empties out at night, although efforts like the West End seem to have helped to greatly reverse that trend. But you've still got an uphill battle. Another factor to consider is crime --- your urban crime rates are probably higher than ours, which scares away a lot of would-be downtown residents.

But I think the cultural factor is possibly the biggest of all. Austin attracts lots of the type of people who want to live in the type of city Austin has been and is becoming. Dallas is a more commerce-oriented city and not as much of a magnet for creative self-sufficient people who can choose to live wherever they want. Many of the newcomers to Austin, such as some of my new wealthy friends (say, can ya spare a dime?) who have moved here from California as well as from other countries, are financially independent and literally chose Austin when they can choose to live anywhere they want on the planet. And they're all happy they moved here, which is scary because it means there will be tens of thousands more like them and the traffic will get even worse, the prices will go higher, and the beautiful green spaces will get further trampled. Kinda like we're the next Seattle?

[AK123]

Just like Houston, downtown empties out at night

I can't speak for Dallas since it's been years since I hit the downtown nightlife there.... but Houston has had decent downtown nightlife for the past 5-7 years...

[southaustingal]

And they're all happy they moved here, which is scary because it means there will be tens of thousands more like them and the traffic will get even worse, the prices will go higher, and the beautiful green spaces will get further trampled. Kinda like we're the next Seattle?

I'm hoping in another 10 years, they'll still be coming, prices will be higher, and I can cash out and move to a city reminiscent of old Austin, complete with unlimited water reserves and no toll roads. Better yet, Californians, hold off for 10 years, so I don't have to work 80 hours a week to afford to live here. Then come and pay more for my house than it's worth and give me a nice retirement.

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by JJP

Just like Houston, downtown empties out at night

I can't speak for Dallas since it's been years since I hit the downtown nightlife there.... but Houston has had decent downtown nightlife for the past 5-7 years...

I knew I was taking a risk when I tried to speak for EITHER city. Haven't been to downtown Houston in about 10 years and have only passed through Dallas once! My comments were wild speculation.

SouthAustinGal -- amen to what you said! Let me know if you find a mini-Austin that's affordable, gorgeous, has tons of culture, no traffic, pristine environment, hiking trails downtown, and...... uhhh......... might as well request that we be able to fly like Superman too while we're at it But it's nice to dream.