Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Rail is inefficient and expensive. Doesn't take people where they need to go. Usually requires other form of transportation at both ends.
Consider the time it takes to get from point A to point B....Point A is not the beginning of the rail line nor is point B the end of the rail line. Rail starting and ending points are only stops along the way. Points A and B are located where the passenger begins the trip and ends (home, office, etc). If passenger leaves home (point A), travels to rail station, boards train, train carries passenger to end of line where passenger disembarks, changes transportation mode, then drives, walks, cycles to destination (point B). Time of travel would include to and from rail service. Time is money and should be considered in cost of rail service.
Which is more efficient, driving from home (Point A) to destination (Point B) on your own schedule or driving from Point A to rail, boarding train, traveling by train to stop, disembarking rail (all based on train schedule) and then driving to destination (Point B) ?
Mass transit studies (usually done by agencies in the business of mass transit) rarely consider passenger time and convenience as a cost. Users are quantified as 'units' or 'riders' and never mind what it takes these units to get to and from these inefficient systems.
What GeneR is referring to is often called the "last mile". Basically, how do you efficiently go from the station to your final destination?
I have mixed feelings about rail in Phoenix (I do, however, support it overall).
Based off the transportation study map, I am most in favor with the yellow route. When I did my own (school) project to study the possibility of commuter rail in Phoenix, I actually wound up going right along the exact same yellow route. An important distinction to make is that commuter rail is heavy rail, not light rail. This distinction doesn't necessarily refer to the weight of the train, but the capacity and the speed. Light rail, like the existing system in Phoenix, moves at a similar speed with traffic, stopping at traffic lights, with stops close together. Heavy rail runs on independent rights of way, with road crossings, more like a regular train. Stops are farther apart, and the train reaches higher speeds between the stops.
Looking at the potential growth of the Valley, I forecast a boom in development along the San Tan Valley corridor. We're blocked in by mountains and Native American Reservations on just about every other side. The Gilbert / Mesa / Queen Creek area already has an airport, and several businesses are starting to set up shop there. Given a few years, it's not hard to imagine that area of the Valley getting built out all the way down to Florence.
Pair this growth with our aging population. As baby boomers grow old and retire to the Valley, there's an increased need to get these people from their 55+ gated communities to their doctor appointments. Eventually a large majority of this group will reach an age where driving is not an option. They will be forced to rely on private medical transportation (which is expensive), or public transportation. Add to that, the regular economic growth of the Valley, which draws in about 100-150,000 people each year. These people are enticed by cheap houses in these far out areas, which creates more traffic on our already backed up freeways.
Just because a train exists, doesn't mean you have to use it. But it does create an alternative for those who can and want to use it.
So here's how it could work, theoretically:
Run the rail from downtown Tucson's Amtrak Station. If you really want to be advantageous, connect it south to the Tucson Airport. From there, run the train non-stop up the I-10 corridor, hanging a right on AZ-87 towards Coolidge. There's already an existing rail line here, with right-of-way. I would suggest widening it to double line, to allow for passing slow-moving freight traffic. The current rail line goes just to the east of Coolidge, veers about a mile to the east, and continues north until it hooks left and runs parallel to Hunt Highway (between San Tan Valley and Florence). A stop in Coolidge would allow commuters who wish to live in the Coolidge / Florence area to board the train closer to home.
From Coolidge, the train would stop once near San Tan Valley, and then once just north of Queen Creek, with a connector (bus, sky train?) to the Mesa Gateway airport. It would continue up the rail line to downtown Gilbert, where you would have a stop. From there, it would continue along existing lines, which run diagonally across East Valley before turning north between Mesa Dr and Country Club Dr in Mesa. There, the rail runs north, and turns west just north of Broadway Rd. The train would make a downtown Mesa stop. This would require re-building the old Mesa station that exists at 3rd Ave and Robson in Mesa (currently just a brick pad, but the switch yard and rail infrastructure is already there). From here, the rail line jogs north slightly, and runs equidistant between Broadway and Apache, into Tempe. It curves north, and then runs parallel to Mill Avenue. I would build a new Tempe station at Ash and 5th. There's already a large lot (currently leased by ASU). Put a top deck on that lot, and you've doubled your potential commuter parking. Tempe's Orbit buses already run down 5th, so transferring to the light rail, Valley Metro buses, or simply going to ASU is very easy.
The existing rail crosses Tempe Town Lake, turning west towards Phoenix, running along the north edge of the Sky Harbor airport. There's already plenty of airport parking here, along with the SkyTrain that connects the light rail to the airport. Putting a rail station on the north side of the tracks here, with a pedestrian bridge to the existing SkyTrain, allows for an easy transfer to the airport. Leaving here, the train would continue west to downtown Phoenix. The old Phoenix Union Station is currently leased by a telecommunications company, and they use the building to store trucks and equipment. It's sad, really. This building is a beautiful example of the Mission Revival architecture around downtown Phoenix. This station needs to return to its former glory. This station is within walking distance to all of the recent development in the downtown core, and also close to existing light rail and bus lines.
Leaving the station, there's two possible choices. Either follow the rail west, and then north along 19th Ave, in order to run parallel to Grand Avenue. This would create a downtown Glendale station, and offer connecting service to West Valley. Alternatively, follow existing rail west, down the I-10 corridor towards Buckeye, connecting with the communities down there. Personally, I would follow Grand, creating a stop in Glendale and a stop in Peoria / Sun City, with a connecting direct bus to West Gate from Glendale during events.
This route runs along pre-existing rail infrastructure and, while I would widen and improve the track through the high speed stretch between Phoenix and Tucson, the right of way already exists. The towns I listed all had rail at one point in their history, and several of them still have old platforms and stations to show for it. Re-building a station in Mesa, for example, would be a lot cheaper than building a new set of tracks that ran down the middle of the freeway.
There would be other benefits of this method, as well. Along with having a cost effective, easy connection between a majority of the suburb cities of Phoenix, you would also create "anchors" which would spur the existing downtown developments. Downtown Mesa is a perfect example of this. The light rail was just extended into downtown Mesa last year. Since then, downtown Mesa has undergone a complete renovation. Businesses are filling into vacant buildings. Streets have been cleaned up. Property values are on the rise. Every station would create a hub of activity around it, and would go a long way to establish the identities of the cities themselves. Instead of being "just another suburb of Phoenix", it would bring life back to their own downtown areas.
The "Last Mile" debate is still an important argument, but I believe Tempe already has the answer. Neighborhood / feeder buses. Tempe's orbit buses are free to ride, clean, and they don't run along the grid system used by Valley Metro. Instead, they run through the neighborhoods, where people actually live and go to, picking people up and dropping them off at the transportation center in downtown Tempe, where they can connect to other systems. Another example of this system, on a much larger scale, is Transmilenio in Bogata, Columbia. Instead of heavy or light rail, Bogata relies on bus rapid transit (which is another discussion entirely), but it uses free feeder buses to bring people between the neighborhoods / businesses and the stations. Having systems like these branch out from the downtown stations of each respective city would connect a lot of people to the system. Commuter parking lots at every station would provide the option to either drive or be dropped off at your nearest station. The private sector can also help pick up the slack. Large companies could dedicate existing vanpool systems to picking people up at the station and bringing them to work instead. Several companies already subsidize or entirely pay for monthly / annual passes in order to encourage employees to ride to work, so it really wouldn't be much different.
What's important is to create the groundwork for alternative modes of transportation sooner rather than later. 20 years from now, when the population of the Valley is 2.5x what it is today, and development extends down the I-10 corridor towards Tucson, and all of our freeways are constantly backed up (on par with Los Angeles today), a lot of people will appreciate having an alternative means to get from A to B.
Why would I want to pay for transportation I would never use?
And wouldn't this just encourage more sprawl only now down the 1-10 corridor?
I never saw this reply. I apologize.
It might, I think if anything it would encourage development in Tucson. Tucson being colder, having better scenery, etc. Might create a resurgence of Tucson, which is something I want to happen. Tucson has so much potential but you know... You've seen it recently, let's be honest.
Florence, Coolidge, etc. I suspect will still be pretty rural areas. If anything I suspect they would attract the types that like a Queen Creek type of lifestyle, more country style with larger lots, more rural setting, etc. Outside of having an easier commute to job centers, these places would still be bedroom communities for those who want a slower pace of life than Tucson and Phoenix. They would develop more though, yes.
Not everyone would be using the commuter rail, but I bet a large amount of West Valley would along with Chandler, Gilbert, and Mesa. No one in Scottsdale would be using this, I bet some people in Tempe might. It would serve the greater good, not just you. Wouldn't you like your freeway commuting to be shorter? I know I would. This would help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneR
Rail is inefficient and expensive. Doesn't take people where they need to go. Usually requires other form of transportation at both ends.
Consider the time it takes to get from point A to point B....Point A is not the beginning of the rail line nor is point B the end of the rail line. Rail starting and ending points are only stops along the way. Points A and B are located where the passenger begins the trip and ends (home, office, etc). If passenger leaves home (point A), travels to rail station, boards train, train carries passenger to end of line where passenger disembarks, changes transportation mode, then drives, walks, cycles to destination (point B). Time of travel would include to and from rail service. Time is money and should be considered in cost of rail service.
Which is more efficient, driving from home (Point A) to destination (Point B) on your own schedule or driving from Point A to rail, boarding train, traveling by train to stop, disembarking rail (all based on train schedule) and then driving to destination (Point B) ?
Mass transit studies (usually done by agencies in the business of mass transit) rarely consider passenger time and convenience as a cost. Users are quantified as 'units' or 'riders' and never mind what it takes these units to get to and from these inefficient systems.
My vote is NO.
Remember these are commuter rails, their whole point is to serve the 9-5 that clog up the freeways. They usually run more often in the morning and the late evening, and less often during the afternoon but still running. They run usually pretty late in the evening and start around 4 in the morning or so. In places that do have commuter rails, they typically have parking spots at the stops.
Here are the schedules for Utah's commuter rail called the FrontRunner (note it's the pink line, the others are light rail lines):
I should note that I'm bringing up these two cities in particular because they are the most similar to us. If we brought up a commuter rail system in say, Boston (don't even know if they have one, just guessing) with more density and bad road structure ridership would be higher because their commute times on freeways are much worse than ours. ABQ and Salt Lake City are newish cities (at least most development has occurred recently rather than the other way around) and a bit more sprawled than Eastern cities so it's important to make that distinction.
Given the fact that ABQ is only the size of Tucson and Santa Fe even smaller, it's amazing they even have a system. In contrast, Salt Lake City's development is larger and does sprawl into Provo, but it still does not reach the population of what Phoenix-Tucson do. Our ridership numbers would be higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cab591
What GeneR is referring to is often called the "last mile". Basically, how do you efficiently go from the station to your final destination?
I have mixed feelings about rail in Phoenix (I do, however, support it overall).
Based off the transportation study map, I am most in favor with the yellow route. When I did my own (school) project to study the possibility of commuter rail in Phoenix, I actually wound up going right along the exact same yellow route. An important distinction to make is that commuter rail is heavy rail, not light rail. This distinction doesn't necessarily refer to the weight of the train, but the capacity and the speed. Light rail, like the existing system in Phoenix, moves at a similar speed with traffic, stopping at traffic lights, with stops close together. Heavy rail runs on independent rights of way, with road crossings, more like a regular train. Stops are farther apart, and the train reaches higher speeds between the stops.
Looking at the potential growth of the Valley, I forecast a boom in development along the San Tan Valley corridor. We're blocked in by mountains and Native American Reservations on just about every other side. The Gilbert / Mesa / Queen Creek area already has an airport, and several businesses are starting to set up shop there. Given a few years, it's not hard to imagine that area of the Valley getting built out all the way down to Florence.
Pair this growth with our aging population. As baby boomers grow old and retire to the Valley, there's an increased need to get these people from their 55+ gated communities to their doctor appointments. Eventually a large majority of this group will reach an age where driving is not an option. They will be forced to rely on private medical transportation (which is expensive), or public transportation. Add to that, the regular economic growth of the Valley, which draws in about 100-150,000 people each year. These people are enticed by cheap houses in these far out areas, which creates more traffic on our already backed up freeways.
Just because a train exists, doesn't mean you have to use it. But it does create an alternative for those who can and want to use it.
So here's how it could work, theoretically:
Run the rail from downtown Tucson's Amtrak Station. If you really want to be advantageous, connect it south to the Tucson Airport. From there, run the train non-stop up the I-10 corridor, hanging a right on AZ-87 towards Coolidge. There's already an existing rail line here, with right-of-way. I would suggest widening it to double line, to allow for passing slow-moving freight traffic. The current rail line goes just to the east of Coolidge, veers about a mile to the east, and continues north until it hooks left and runs parallel to Hunt Highway (between San Tan Valley and Florence). A stop in Coolidge would allow commuters who wish to live in the Coolidge / Florence area to board the train closer to home.
From Coolidge, the train would stop once near San Tan Valley, and then once just north of Queen Creek, with a connector (bus, sky train?) to the Mesa Gateway airport. It would continue up the rail line to downtown Gilbert, where you would have a stop. From there, it would continue along existing lines, which run diagonally across East Valley before turning north between Mesa Dr and Country Club Dr in Mesa. There, the rail runs north, and turns west just north of Broadway Rd. The train would make a downtown Mesa stop. This would require re-building the old Mesa station that exists at 3rd Ave and Robson in Mesa (currently just a brick pad, but the switch yard and rail infrastructure is already there). From here, the rail line jogs north slightly, and runs equidistant between Broadway and Apache, into Tempe. It curves north, and then runs parallel to Mill Avenue. I would build a new Tempe station at Ash and 5th. There's already a large lot (currently leased by ASU). Put a top deck on that lot, and you've doubled your potential commuter parking. Tempe's Orbit buses already run down 5th, so transferring to the light rail, Valley Metro buses, or simply going to ASU is very easy.
The existing rail crosses Tempe Town Lake, turning west towards Phoenix, running along the north edge of the Sky Harbor airport. There's already plenty of airport parking here, along with the SkyTrain that connects the light rail to the airport. Putting a rail station on the north side of the tracks here, with a pedestrian bridge to the existing SkyTrain, allows for an easy transfer to the airport. Leaving here, the train would continue west to downtown Phoenix. The old Phoenix Union Station is currently leased by a telecommunications company, and they use the building to store trucks and equipment. It's sad, really. This building is a beautiful example of the Mission Revival architecture around downtown Phoenix. This station needs to return to its former glory. This station is within walking distance to all of the recent development in the downtown core, and also close to existing light rail and bus lines.
Leaving the station, there's two possible choices. Either follow the rail west, and then north along 19th Ave, in order to run parallel to Grand Avenue. This would create a downtown Glendale station, and offer connecting service to West Valley. Alternatively, follow existing rail west, down the I-10 corridor towards Buckeye, connecting with the communities down there. Personally, I would follow Grand, creating a stop in Glendale and a stop in Peoria / Sun City, with a connecting direct bus to West Gate from Glendale during events.
This route runs along pre-existing rail infrastructure and, while I would widen and improve the track through the high speed stretch between Phoenix and Tucson, the right of way already exists. The towns I listed all had rail at one point in their history, and several of them still have old platforms and stations to show for it. Re-building a station in Mesa, for example, would be a lot cheaper than building a new set of tracks that ran down the middle of the freeway.
There would be other benefits of this method, as well. Along with having a cost effective, easy connection between a majority of the suburb cities of Phoenix, you would also create "anchors" which would spur the existing downtown developments. Downtown Mesa is a perfect example of this. The light rail was just extended into downtown Mesa last year. Since then, downtown Mesa has undergone a complete renovation. Businesses are filling into vacant buildings. Streets have been cleaned up. Property values are on the rise. Every station would create a hub of activity around it, and would go a long way to establish the identities of the cities themselves. Instead of being "just another suburb of Phoenix", it would bring life back to their own downtown areas.
The "Last Mile" debate is still an important argument, but I believe Tempe already has the answer. Neighborhood / feeder buses. Tempe's orbit buses are free to ride, clean, and they don't run along the grid system used by Valley Metro. Instead, they run through the neighborhoods, where people actually live and go to, picking people up and dropping them off at the transportation center in downtown Tempe, where they can connect to other systems. Another example of this system, on a much larger scale, is Transmilenio in Bogata, Columbia. Instead of heavy or light rail, Bogata relies on bus rapid transit (which is another discussion entirely), but it uses free feeder buses to bring people between the neighborhoods / businesses and the stations. Having systems like these branch out from the downtown stations of each respective city would connect a lot of people to the system. Commuter parking lots at every station would provide the option to either drive or be dropped off at your nearest station. The private sector can also help pick up the slack. Large companies could dedicate existing vanpool systems to picking people up at the station and bringing them to work instead. Several companies already subsidize or entirely pay for monthly / annual passes in order to encourage employees to ride to work, so it really wouldn't be much different.
What's important is to create the groundwork for alternative modes of transportation sooner rather than later. 20 years from now, when the population of the Valley is 2.5x what it is today, and development extends down the I-10 corridor towards Tucson, and all of our freeways are constantly backed up (on par with Los Angeles today), a lot of people will appreciate having an alternative means to get from A to B.
Wow, what a detailed post.
I didn't know there were existing places to put in stops. That would help to reduce a lot of costs.
Last edited by Prickly Pear; 05-13-2016 at 03:53 PM..
Another good example of commuter rail is CalTran in Los Angeles. I picture the San Tan Valley corridor to develop much like the I-10 corridor, east of LA, through San Bernardino and Beaumont. Sort of half-rural / agricultural, but mixed in with developed suburbs and towns.
Why would I want to pay for transportation I would never use?
You do know that your federal tax dollars you pay, help pay for mass transit (and highway construction) all over this country in places you might have been to and in places you never will go to. It just a fact of life, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Federal tax money helped pay for half of the $1.4 billion 20-mile light rail starter line in Phoenix, Mesa and Tempe, and I'm sure 90-95% of people or more in the entire US will not only never visit the Valley, they will never even use the light rail, but their tax dollars help pay for it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
