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Ancestry doesn't determine Southern. I highly doubt most Czech's in Oklahoma still speak and act like people in Eastern Europe. The original Czech immigrants in Oklahoma moved to the South and their offspring were born into Southern culture.
Simply put, the Czech people in Oklahoma are NOT southern. From Yukon Oklahoma up to the Kansas border there is a string of heavily Czech towns and communities that have been there since statehood. Lots of Catholics and Czech heritage type of things. These people were farmers and basically were not really exposed to southerners until the oil fields opened up in the 1950s.
Your Arkansas town is not a good comparison because the northwestern quarter of Oklahoma was settled almost entirely by people coming from the Midwest or immigrants coming from Germany, eastern Europe and German mennonites from Russia. Even Oklahoma City originally had more people from the northern states than the southern states primarily because the Boomer movement was started by a bunch of Kansans. In essense, these people were not surrounded by southerners like your town in Arkansas may have been.
Southerners have encroached on OKC and northwest Oklahoma through the decades and I would agree with you that OKC is now southern lite, but northwest Oklahoma still has a strong non southern heritage despite the fact that many people from other more southern parts of the state have moved up there.
Simply put, the Czech people in Oklahoma are NOT southern. From Yukon Oklahoma up to the Kansas border there is a string of heavily Czech towns and communities that have been there since statehood. Lots of Catholics and Czech heritage type of things. These people were farmers and basically were not really exposed to southerners until the oil fields opened up in the 1950s.
Your Arkansas town is not a good comparison because the northwestern quarter of Oklahoma was settled almost entirely by people coming from the Midwest or immigrants coming from Germany, eastern Europe and German mennonites from Russia. Even Oklahoma City originally had more people from the northern states than the southern states primarily because the Boomer movement was started by a bunch of Kansans. In essense, these people were not surrounded by southerners like your town in Arkansas may have been.
Southerners have encroached on OKC and northwest Oklahoma through the decades and I would agree with you that OKC is now southern lite, but northwest Oklahoma still has a strong non southern heritage despite the fact that many people from other more southern parts of the state have moved up there.
Southern heritage is usually tied to ethnicity. You don't really see "ethnic" non Blacks take on Southern identity really that often. Most form enclaves and are isolated from the mainstream culture.
Here in Louisville, KY there is a significant Cuban community that is not integrated and just act like your typical Cuban from Miami. They're not into country or have the accent (they actually speak in a Latino English dialect) nor do they eat the food. The South has historically been not very friendly to immigrants (that or they haven't been plentiful). In Southern cities where the culture is largely immigrant based (like New Orleans), the city is largely not very Southern in culture at all. While people from New Orleans identify with the South they are definitely very unique in very non-Southern ways. Look at what happened to Florida.
Ancestry doesn't determine Southern. I highly doubt most Czech's in Oklahoma still speak and act like people in Eastern Europe. The original Czech immigrants in Oklahoma moved to the South and their offspring were born into Southern culture. There's a town called Slovac, Arkansas. Everyone in the town is either Slovac or half Slovac. But their Eastern European surnames are the only remaining connection to Eastern Europe. Everyone there speaks and acts Southern.
It does and it doesn't. People that wear the Southern badge of honor with pride are usually descended from people who came here from the British Isles and whose ancestors have been here long enough to where their European identity has been replaced by an American one.
Look at what happened to St. Louis. It was once Southern. Then the Germans took it over and it became not Southern. You need to understand that the Southern mentality and identity is tied to Ulster Scots and people who descend from English gentry. These were the groups sympathetic to the Southern cause and also those who subsequently created Southern culture along with Black slaves and their descendants. Other Europeans and other groups didn't have a part in that thus are removed from it. Are some sympathetic to it? Yes of course. But most non-Anglos aren't as obsessed with Southern identity.
There may be really small pockets of Czechs in Oklahoma who aren't Southern. My statement about Oklahoma being Southern was a general statement about the vast majority of Oklahomans, not the few who are the exception to the rule. There was a man with a Czech surname from the general area you described who did business with a company I worked for in Omaha. He would be in Omaha once a month. We had frequent conversations because he noticed I didn't have a Mid-West accent and was initially curious why I moved to Nebraska. He told me people from Omaha were always asking him what part of the South he was from. He said he never thought about having an accent until he traveled to Nebraska on business. All of that said, I don't know what a small group of Czechs in Oklahoma had to do with me mentioning Garth Brooks sounds and acts Southern??
Also, you will find pockets of immigrant groups in the South such as Cubans in Kentucky who don't assimilate into the local culture right away. They attempt to hold own to their original culture. But they will eventually start adopting Southern culture as their kids and grandkids start picking up Southern accents and mannerisms and start marrying outside of their original ethnic circle. You can only hold on to an outside culture for so long. A lot of young Spanish kids in the US now speak Spanglish. A few more generations out most Spanish kids in the US will only speak English. I'm not from Oklahoma, but I have family there and I've traveled throughout the state in addition to most of the US. Saying Oklahoma is anything but Southern is denying the obvious. Trying to say Oklahoma is Mid-Western or some other adjective to avoid being labled Southern is like someone overweight trying to say they're "big boned."
There may be really small pockets of Czechs in Oklahoma who aren't Southern. My statement about Oklahoma being Southern was a general statement about the vast majority of Oklahomans, not the few who are the exception to the rule. There was a man with a Czech surname from the general area you described who did business with a company I worked for in Omaha. He would be in Omaha once a month. We had frequent conversations because he noticed I didn't have a Mid-West accent and was initially curious why I moved to Nebraska. He told me people from Omaha were always asking him what part of the South he was from. He said he never thought about having an accent until he traveled to Nebraska on business. All of that said, I don't know what a small group of Czechs in Oklahoma had to do with me mentioning Garth Brooks sounds and acts Southern??
Also, you will find pockets of immigrant groups in the South such as Cubans in Kentucky who don't assimilate into the local culture right away. They attempt to hold own to their original culture. But they will eventually start adopting Southern culture as their kids and grandkids start picking up Southern accents and mannerisms and start marrying outside of their original ethnic circle. You can only hold on to an outside culture for so long. A lot of young Spanish kids in the US now speak Spanglish. A few more generations out most Spanish kids in the US will only speak English. I'm not from Oklahoma, but I have family there and I've traveled throughout the state in addition to most of the US. Saying Oklahoma is anything but Southern is denying the obvious. Trying to say Oklahoma is Mid-Western or some other adjective to avoid being labled Southern is like someone overweight trying to say they're "big boned."
Oklahoma is more gateway Western/ Texas Southern (sort of a Southern and Western blend) than the type of Southern seen in Memphis.
I'm originally from the Ark-La-Tex. I've lived in Dallas, Little Rock, St Louis, Omaha, and Columbia South Carolina. My grandparents were from SE Oklahoma and I have family in Tulsa. Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and just about all of the rest of Oklamoha are definitely Southern. Not Alabama deep South, but Southern light. However, a light beer is still a beer. There's a "redneck" stigma that comes with being Southern. I'm assuming that's why a lot of young Tulsans on this board are obsessed with trying to be Mid-Western. That being said, I'll acknowledge cable tv and transplants from other regions have watered down the Southern accent in younger Okies. But all of this Oklahoma Mid-West talk is crushed with one name, REBA. What part of REBA's accent or mannerisms say Mid-West???
I was born and reared 50 north of where Reba is from. I have family and friends in Atoka, Antlers and Canadian. Even though I really like Reba very much, I've never herd anyone in this part of the country talk like her. To me her accent sounds very appellation, she chews her words a lot.
She calls her dad Pappy, I've never heard anyone down here call their dad pappy.
Oklahoma is more gateway Western/ Texas Southern (sort of a Southern and Western blend) than the type of Southern seen in Memphis.
Oklahoma and Texas should be called the Southwest, Arizona and New Mexico the Desert Southwest. IMHO there is nothing Southern about OKC, Fort Worth, Amarillo or Lawton.
Oklahoma and Texas should be called the Southwest, Arizona and New Mexico the Desert Southwest. IMHO there is nothing Southern about OKC, Fort Worth, Amarillo or Lawton.
There isn't much Southern about most of Texas outside of Houston, either. Oklahoma people using Texas as an example to prove Southern culture don't realize it kind of...isn't.
I don't know what a small group of Czechs in Oklahoma had to do with me mentioning Garth Brooks sounds and acts Southern??
Because he was raised in a town that was not historically southern
Also, you will find pockets of immigrant groups in the South such as Cubans in Kentucky who don't assimilate into the local culture right away. They attempt to hold own to their original culture. But they will eventually start adopting Southern culture as their kids and grandkids start picking up Southern accents and mannerisms and start marrying outside of their original ethnic circle. You can only hold on to an outside culture for so long. A lot of young Spanish kids in the US now speak Spanglish. A few more generations out most Spanish kids in the US will only speak English. I'm not from Oklahoma, but I have family there and I've traveled throughout the state in addition to most of the US. Saying Oklahoma is anything but Southern is denying the obvious. Trying to say Oklahoma is Mid-Western or some other adjective to avoid being labled Southern is like someone overweight trying to say they're "big boned."
Again, the point is that Northwestern Oklahoma was settled by NON southerners. The southerners encroached upon the non southerners in that part of the state. Not the other way around.
Southeastern Oklahoma is strictly southern. Northeastern Oklahoma is a mixed bag. Lots of southern but some midwestern influence, particularly in Tulsa.
South Central Oklahoma is southern/Texan. Southwest Oklahoma is mostly Texan. But NW Oklahoma is northern plains mostly. The panhandle is a mix of Texan and Kansan.
This is the best example I can find of the political differences between the Northwestern part of the state.
It's important to note that the areas that voted for Goldwater outside of that northwestern block of the state includes Kay County and Washington county (which were the two home counties of Conoco oil and Phillips Petroleum) which are strongly midwestern due to the fact that a lot of the white collar work force was from the midwest and eastern part of the country. The other county that voted for Goldwater was Tulsa county. Same thing. Tulsa has historically had a lot of midwestern and eastern influence.
There is no doubt that southern influence has encroached on NW Oklahoma but I still don't think it is southern yet.
Last edited by eddie gein; 03-19-2017 at 12:31 PM..
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