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Other than not leaning into turns, which isn't really an MSF thing as the speeds aren't high enough for the most part, basically the opposite. 18 mph in 5 feet isn't even physically possible. You'd die from the g forces from that kind of acceleration.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
Other than not leaning into turns, which isn't really an MSF thing as the speeds aren't high enough for the most part, basically the opposite. 18 mph in 5 feet isn't even physically possible. You'd die from the g forces from that kind of acceleration.
Dead stop to 18 mph in 5 feet could be accomplished by a rocket sled, I am certain, at maybe 5 G's. On a Rebel 250 or 450, likely not. Without doing the math, 10-20 feet sounds more like it. Now, I have heard of them have you stop in about 10 feet from 15mph. Entirely doable, standing on the front brakes I'm fairly sure. Every sport bike I owned would do so-called 'stoppies,' I was something of a squid-boy expert at those in the 1990s. My Husqvarna SM510 Supermoto bike would go damn near vertical on those, helluva sight I'm told. They were fun.
Other:
Wasn't aware they taught drag racing in MSF.
"Never look at speedo" makes zero sense.
Tree line, yeah. Only if you're a commando flagging down the helicopter rescue mission does that apply.
Never lean with the bike, right. Nicky Hayden had it all wrong.
Riding decades on the street and racing three seasons with AFM in California, sticking your knee out "on the street" really isn't needed, and if it is you're probably going supra legal speeds. That latter thing will get you arrested, worst-case. So if the cops notice that, they'll also have you for "exhibition of speed" anyway.
I went through some difference of opinion during MSF course in CA. We got through it, I passed. I didn't want to instruct for them, despite having Amateur (class) racing license at the time (1995). Yes, I took MSF late (riding for eight years at that point) to comply with the law. My bad, actually. Self-taught otherwise.
Half what they teach to be safe you'd better unlearn to be fast, on a racetrack, but not many take it that far to know any better.
I'm skeptical the above were taught anywhere, frankly. As others mention, there is the "MSF Way" and the highway, last I checked, and while I don't agree with or practice 100% they're by-and-large right to keep you out of trouble on the street with their curriculum.
I never heard any of those things at the course I took. The biggest exception I had with the one I was in was "never brake while turning". Being able to manage braking and turning at the same time is a critical riding skill. Flip side-this was an "intermediate" (really beginner) course and was trying to make things simple for inexperienced riders.
I never heard any of those things at the course I took. The biggest exception I had with the one I was in was "never brake while turning". Being able to manage braking and turning at the same time is a critical riding skill. Flip side-this was an "intermediate" (really beginner) course and was trying to make things simple for inexperienced riders.
" For example, they required that you always sit at an intersection with the clutch in and transmission in gear ".
I started riding in the early 70's and still ride older bikes.This reminds me of reading about the people that did this, being first at the intersection, with vehicles right in front of you going in each direction, and the ball on the clutch cable gives out, and you are launched into traffic. That happened many times. If I have it in gear, at a stoplight, my foot is on the brake.
With inexperienced riders, I would teach not to brake during a turn. That requires knowing road conditions, many factors here, knowing your bike and its braking abilities. Things that new riders just do not consider. And wont learn or remember if learned in a class. The most important things will be learned or get more skilled at will be learned by seat of your pants so to speak. Many a lesson I learned how far to take something, until I took it too far. Those lessons you wont forget.
This testing talk is in contrast to my experience in getting an M endorsement. After passing my reg license test, the examiner simply asked me if I was going to be riding a motorcycle, I said yes, he just stamped an M on the Lic and charged me another dollar. I had a licensed bike on the road before I had a car. A fact my gf at the time didnt like, and soon got a car.
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[quote=Blondebaerde;50478625]Dead stop to 18 mph in 5 feet could be accomplished by a rocket sled, I am certain, at maybe 5 G's. On a Rebel 250 or 450, likely not. Without doing the math, 10-20 feet sounds more like it. Now, I have heard of them have you stop in about 10 feet from 15mph. Entirely doable, standing on the front brakes I'm fairly sure. Every sport bike I owned would do so-called 'stoppies,' I was something of a squid-boy expert at those in the 1990s. My Husqvarna SM510 Supermoto bike would go damn near vertical on those, helluva sight I'm told. They were fun.[/QUOT
Doing the math, 18mph to 0 in 5 feet is a deceleration rate of 2.19Gs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_M
Was it Actually MSF, or the "state equivalent" (I know Oregon does their own thing, not sure about other states)? IE, what state?
Excellent question! From what I saw in the days I attended MSF training there was VERY little room for anything outside their established curriculum.
One thing I remember well is there being a rider in my class whose opinion of counter-steering was basically NO!, you can't possibly push the right handlebar to turn right! We finally convinced him to get going at a reasonable pace, open palms on the grips and to push the right grip, the look on his face when he came back to the group was priceless, as if he'd just witnessed a miracle!
I've found that many such little details to vary quite a bit from state to state in how the course is taught.
I applied for an instructor's job at one point and part of the selection process was to complete the course, where I didn't agree with some of the things they taught "for safety".
For example, they required that you always sit at an intersection with the clutch in and transmission in gear. The explanation was that you would be instantly able to move the bike to respond to an emergency situation, such as a car pulling up behind you at an excessive speed, looking like it might rear end your bike. I questioned how a bike rider could judge 99% of the vehicles pulling up behind them wouldn't stop in a timely manner ... and yes, I know of a few riders who have been rear-ended at stoplight intersections and sustained serious injuries. (One where a drunk concrete truck driver rear-ended a car that had stopped behind the motorcyclist, pushing that car into the bike ... resulting in broken hip, leg, and serious lacerations on arms/torso. How could the bike rider have anticipated such an incident and responded to it with his bike in gear?)
As one who rides older model motorcycles with clutches/throw-out bearings that cannot take that type of abuse, I was not comfortable doing so on the bike I was riding in the class. I always roll up to a stop and engage neutral in the last foot of rolling as close to the stopping point as possible so that my hand is off the clutch lever and the bike can remain stationary. That's my 50+ year habit of riding motorcycles and one verified in the numerous times I've rebuilt burned up clutches in bikes over the decades for riders who couldn't find neutral on their bikes when stopped.
So the instructors/examiners and I weren't happy with each other. They made it clear that I wasn't going to pass their course and I made it clear I wasn't going to teach riding tactics that I didn't agree with.
There's a clip on a YT video of a biker lurching to the side avoiding a speeding pickup truck that smashes into the car he was stopped behind. It appears he probably would have been killed if hit. Like him, I keep it in gear, stay to the side and watch that rearview - YMMV.
The MSF course is required to get a motorcycle license in my state. I’ve been around bikes my entire life and consider myself a decent enough rider.
They expect you to accelerate from a dead stop to 18mph in 5 feet.
At a stop light you must roll back and forth.
Never look at your speedometer.
Look the the very top of the tree line in front of you at all times.
Never lean with the bike.
Along with incorrect legal information i.e “If you stick your knee out in a corner you’ll be fined or even arrested”.
Where did you take your BRC?
PM me if you chose.
Last edited by NORTY FLATZ; 09-15-2023 at 10:02 PM..
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We finally convinced him to get going at a reasonable pace, open palms on the grips and to push the right grip, the look on his face when he came back to the group was priceless, as if he'd just witnessed a miracle! 
