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But..the day he died there were many other tourists snorkeling. At least some of them would have experienced the same long air travel he did. They didn’t die. So isn’t it likely he had a medical condition that would account for this issue?
Nobody claimed everyone dies of R.O.P.E after a long flight, that's a silly argument. And yes overweight seniors are probably more susceptible to R.O.P.E. So simply put that in the warning.
I don't understand how you can totally dismiss the possibility of R.O.P.E when we have an actual doctor weighing in, we have a study conducted by the Bureau of Tourism that clearly shows a possible link and you don't even know if he had a medical condition.
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; 05-14-2024 at 02:43 PM..
I think for starters you slightly overestimate the role or responsibility of a tourism agency. Their job is to stimulate the economy by bringing in tourist money, not to act as a public health watchdog. The NYC or San Francisco tourist board won't put up posters saying "If you come here, you may get randomly attacked by a crazed hobo".
It's not even if there was a link between air travel and this risk that would be a Hawaii-specific issue. It'd apply to most tourist destinations popular for water sports, the Caribbean, Southeast Asia, Egypt, Aegean Islands, Australia.
I think you're looking hard for liability when really I think what we have here is room for raising awareness. And I think that tourism agencies by their very nature aren't the right people or organizations to do that. When locations have warning signs telling visitors of certain risks, I don't think it's the state tourism board that puts those up.
Actually I am not looking hard at liability, if you read my posts I only stated R.O.P.E was a possibility and there should be warnings issued. I also posted that the warnings would be more effective at the resort and not in some Bureau brochure that is never read. I believe this wife does have a point. Had they seen the warnings she even said they would have sat at the pool drinking Mai Tias for a few days He mostly likely would not have gone snorkeling that day had he known the risk. But he never knew because nobody informed him and that remains the point.
But I was mostly pushing back at the posters who present themselves as medical experts when they are not.
I tried to find any studies about seniors and snorkeling and found there just isn't much research on the topic, most studies are on young men in the Navy for instance. I only found sites that are dive or resort sites and of course they said it's fine for seniors provided they do not have heart or lung issues, if they do consult their doctor was the advice.
So no there does not seem to be any medical studies to support the claims that a 65 year old fat guy should never go snorkeling. That is simply speculation by posters.
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; 05-14-2024 at 02:45 PM..
But I was mostly pushing back at the posters who present themselves as medical experts when they are not.
I tried to find any studies about seniors and snorkeling and found there just isn't much research on the topic, most studies are on young men in the Navy for instance. I only found sites that are dive or resort sites and of course they said it's fine for seniors provided they do not have heart or lung issues, if they do consult their doctor was the advice.
So no there does not seem to be any medical studies to support the claims that a 65 year old fat guy should never go snorkeling. That is simply speculation by posters.
And so the Hawaii tourism board should be dispensing medical advice and be held liable if it doesn't? I think that is the real issue here.
Actually I am not looking hard at liability, if you read my posts I only stated R.O.P.E was a possibility and there should be warnings issued. I also posted that the warnings would be more effective at the resort and not in some Bureau brochure that is never read. I believe this wife does have a point. Had they seen the warnings she even said they would have sat at the pool drinking Mai Tias for a few days He mostly likely would not have gone snorkeling that day had he known the risk. But he never knew because nobody informed him and that remains the point.
But I was mostly pushing back at the posters who present themselves as medical experts when they are not.
I tried to find any studies about seniors and snorkeling and found there just isn't much research on the topic, most studies are on young men in the Navy for instance. I only found sites that are dive or resort sites and of course they said it's fine for seniors provided they do not have heart or lung issues, if they do consult their doctor was the advice.
So no there does not seem to be any medical studies to support the claims that a 65 year old fat guy should never go snorkeling. That is simply speculation by posters.
From what we've been reading in the news regarding this story, it's highly likely he died from ROPE. The chances of this happening to an obese elder would naturally be greater than for a younger, healthier person. One doesn't need to be a medical expert to figure that out.
According to the Hawaii study it's not clear at this time if air travel can be a contributing factor, so it'd be premature to issue such a warning. If such a warning was issued, quite likely someone with a financial stake in snorkeling would sue the responsible party for unsubstantiated fear mongering!
From what we've been reading in the news regarding this story, it's highly likely he died from ROPE. The chances of this happening to an obese elder would naturally be greater than for a younger, healthier person. One doesn't need to be a medical expert to figure that out.
According to the Hawaii study it's not clear at this time if air travel can be a contributing factor, so it'd be premature to issue such a warning. If such a warning was issued, quite likely someone with a financial stake in snorkeling would sue the responsible party for unsubstantiated fear mongering!
You believe it's highly likely that he died from ROPE yet you do not believe the time after the flight was a factor. Again the doctor quoted in the article in the OP said waiting just three days before snorkeling in the ocean can dramatically reduce the risk of developing the condition. Sorry you do not know more than a respiratory health specialist at the University of Michigan.
I have yet to see one poster provide any medical evidence what so ever to show an overweight (judging from the pic he was not THAT overweight) 65 year old should never go snorkeling. No that is just speculation from posters who are unqualified to make this claim.
The study concluded long haul air travel may be a significant predisposing factor to snorkel-induced ROPE. Now the word "may" is not conclusive but the study made it clear there was evidence that it is a distinct possibility so warnings should have been issued. Word it just that way, it MAY be a risk and let the customers decide if they want to take on that risk. But to never inform them at all, well that's wrong and destroys families.
I believe the law suit will make them rethink this and do what they should have done years ago and issue warnings. And by "they" I mean the Bureau and more so the resorts and any other place that rents snorkeling/scuba equipment.
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; Yesterday at 06:29 AM..
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Dave,
I'm in that age range and I'm fat, and I accept that both of those factors put me at some risk. Unless my doctor has VERY recently told me that I have the heart of a 25 yr old, I'm certainly going to get a check up and an ok before going snorkeling, hang gliding, bungee jumping, log rolling, or just a really strenuous hike while on vacation.
We don't know if he was in poor health, but unless he's had a recent physical check up we also don't know if he wasn't. Snorkeling does take a certain degree of fitness, it's not safe for just anyone and everyone, in spite of popular opinion.
One post said 240 snorkelers drownings and another said about one per week. In either case there is a lot of data and it should be fairly easy to see a correlation between recent air travel and not. You could also graph age, physical condition and BAC. I'd be inclined to think fatigue and alcohol are major factors.
You believe it's highly likely that he died from ROPE yet you do not believe the time after the flight was a factor. Again the doctor quoted in the article in the OP said waiting just three days before snorkeling in the ocean can dramatically reduce the risk of developing the condition. Sorry you do not know more than a respiratory health specialist at the University of Michigan.
I have yet to see one poster provide any medical evidence what so ever to show an overweight (judging from the pic he was not THAT overweight) 65 year old should never go snorkeling. No that is just speculation from posters who are unqualified to make this claim.
The study concluded long haul air travel may be a significant predisposing factor to snorkel-induced ROPE. Now the word "may" is not conclusive but the study made it clear there was evidence that it is a distinct possibility so warnings should have been issued. Word it just that way, it MAY be a risk and let the customers decide if they want to take on that risk. But to never inform them at all, well that's wrong and destroys families.
I believe the law suit will make them rethink this and do what they should have done years ago and issue warnings. And by "they" I mean the Bureau and more so the resorts and any other place that rents snorkeling/scuba equipment.
Even if there had been a warning that recent air travel MAY be a predisposing factor, there is no evidence that the guy would have heeded it.
He was an experienced snorkeler who was out enjoying his vacation and may have even had a Mai Tai or two before he went snorkeling. Should there be signs posted along the ocean telling people not to drink and swim? Even if there are signs posted telling people not to drink and swim how many vacationers do you think actually don't do so because of those signs?
How many tourists snorkel each day in Hawaii? I'll bet it's A LOT.
You believe it's highly likely that he died from ROPE yet you do not believe the time after the flight was a factor. Again the doctor quoted in the article in the OP said waiting just three days before snorkeling in the ocean can dramatically reduce the risk of developing the condition. Sorry you do not know more than a respiratory health specialist at the University of Michigan.
I have yet to see one poster provide any medical evidence what so ever to show an overweight (judging from the pic he was not THAT overweight) 65 year old should never go snorkeling...
I did not speculate one way or another regarding the effects of air travel on ROPE. The respiratory doctor you're referencing was ONE guy found by the plaintiffs to assist them in their lawsuit.
Did someone say a 65 year old guy should never go snorkeling? No, just that his risk of dying is probably higher. That's just common sense. Photo in OP shows him to be VERY overweight.
Dave,
I'm in that age range and I'm fat, and I accept that both of those factors put me at some risk. Unless my doctor has VERY recently told me that I have the heart of a 25 yr old, I'm certainly going to get a check up and an ok before going snorkeling, hang gliding, bungee jumping, log rolling, or just a really strenuous hike while on vacation.
We don't know if he was in poor health, but unless he's had a recent physical check up we also don't know if he wasn't. Snorkeling does take a certain degree of fitness, it's not safe for just anyone and everyone, in spite of popular opinion.
And what you will probably find is while it's obviously more of a risk than a 25 year old there is no reason what so ever to believe it would be an unsafe activity for you or me or anyone else our age. Again I searched for medical evidence to show it would be unsafe and found nothing, not one poster has provided that either.
I've been snorkeling several times and it's an easy swim with fins to help propel you, it takes almost no effort what so ever. The issue was breathing through a snorkel not a strain on the heart as you would experience from a strenuous hike or log rolling. It clearly appears to me that he suffered from ROPE, drowning people do not speak. Looks pretty clear to me that ROPE is more to blame than the weight and age of the victim.
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; Yesterday at 09:26 AM..
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