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What I meant by Nirvana "being for the selfish monks" is that separation from the world into monasteries is the best way to reach Nirvana (which is upon death) but anyone can reach enlightenment when they understand agnosticism and the greater vision of understanding.
The wheel of life stuff about rebirth isn't the core of pure Buddhism, it isn't part of the things that unite all Buddhists as a community. Enlightenment is meant to be shared with the willing in a peaceful way, and willingness is to be pushed on the unwilling in a peaceful way. This is the reason that Buddhism is not called Nirvanism but is instead called Awakening. The Buddha said to question wrong Buddhists teachings, and so did the current Dalai Lama, Honorable Mr. Tenzin Gietzo. Now we must preach to Jesus and Yahweh in books and action to help them and their misguided section of followers (our brothers and sisters who have gone astray from the path of moderation) find true Understanding.
Yes, there is really no creator God in Buddhism, but like others have mentioned, many schools have a plethora of divine beings called "gods". As far as I know, they can't "save us" (we have to save ourselves), but they can help us along our Dharma. Which is why many Buddhists will still pray to the Devas and Boddisattvas for help. Not for salvation, but for guidance.
Our bodies and mind function with no help from what we think of as I or Mine. Your heart, breath, bodily functions, blood flow, sleeping and waking all function to their own rhythm. You cannot control how your blood flows or where even if you try. One can consider that unseen power by which our body functions so perfectly unless one is sick, as a Deva, a god, personification of the power. we can give thanks to that power and pray that they always functions so.
We are made of the same elements as the earth is made of. we are all connected in ways we are not in aware of. being mindful of these connections helps our well being as well as the world we live in. if everybody reveres the wind and the rain that sustain life, we will have less to fear from climate change.
You are correct. which is why Buddhist 'salvation' is in the hands of the individual, not in the hands of gods or demigods. Buddhism is atheistic in that gods are irrelevant, even if they exist.
There can be gods in Buddhism. But there can never be One Supreme God that rules over all the cosmos. WHY? Because of the concept of emptiness. Nothing can exist in an absolute sense like one supreme being ruling over the cosmos.
I never understood the deity worship in Buddhism either, although it's usually looked on as more of a spiritual manifestation than an actual person/God like you have in Christianity. It's similar to a Catholic praying to a saint. That's usually just seen as another facet of God, not to that individual sitting up in the sky somewheres.
But both Christianity and Buddhism have many, many different flavors, so one just picks the one that suits them as being a better fit. None are more, or less, true because no one on earth was around when Buddha or Jesus lived. What's handed down is someone else's interpretation of what they said or did. This is why Zen has always been a better for me, and I don't even see it as Buddhism really. Just sit, wake up, get rid of views, experience reality as it is and there you go! It's so simple, and it's incredibly difficult because it IS so simple. Only when we begin to see how many attachments we actually have to beliefs of one kind or another do we get a hint at how much they permeate nearly every second of our lives, 24/7.
Last edited by stephenMM; 09-11-2023 at 02:45 PM..
I never understood the deity worship in Buddhism either, although it's usually looked on as more of a spiritual manifestation than an actual person/God like you have in Christianity. It's similar to a Catholic praying to a saint. That's usually just seen as another facet of God, not to that individual sitting up in the sky somewheres.
But both Christianity and Buddhism have many, many different flavors, so one just picks the one that suits them as being a better fit. None are more, or less, true because no one on earth was around when Buddha or Jesus lived. What's handed down is someone else's interpretation of what they said or did. This is why Zen has always been a better for me, and I don't even see it as Buddhism really. Just sit, wake up, get rid of views, experience reality as it is and there you go! It's so simple, and it's incredibly difficult because it IS so simple. Only when we begin to see how many attachments we actually have to beliefs of one kind or another do we get a hint at how much they permeate nearly every second of our lives, 24/7.
It's complicated. I've never seen gods or spirit talk very much in Zen Buddhism. I'm not sure about Chan Buddhism in China (or Seon in South Korea), which are both very similar to Zen.
Yes, the gods are more about you trying to take on the persona, especially in Tibetan Buddhism. But, there are Buddhists in all schools (including Zen) who believe in deity worship. Theravada Buddhists have gods, too, but it's less emphasized than in Tibetan Buddhism.
As I said, no correct Buddhist of any school believes in an ultimate/absolute or supreme/creator God. There could be gods, etc., but they are either representations, or a physical god from a spirit realm that is "empty" of existence, like everything else.
I have great respect for Zen Buddhism - I really do.
It's complicated. I've never seen gods or spirit talk very much in Zen Buddhism. I'm not sure about Chan Buddhism in China (or Seon in South Korea), which are both very similar to Zen.
Yes, the gods are more about you trying to take on the persona, especially in Tibetan Buddhism. But, there are Buddhists in all schools (including Zen) who believe in deity worship. Theravada Buddhists have gods, too, but it's less emphasized than in Tibetan Buddhism.
As I said, no correct Buddhist of any school believes in an ultimate/absolute or supreme/creator God. There could be gods, etc., but they are either representations, or a physical god from a spirit realm that is "empty" of existence, like everything else.
I have great respect for Zen Buddhism - I really do.
You ought to rethink the bolded. We are not told what we are required to think.
Well, if you do not believe in emptiness, I dont think you could be a Buddhist. I see what you are saying to some degree, but there are limits.
It really isn't your role to decide what a Buddhist is in regard to anyone else but you. I'm not interested in Zen because of just the kind of thinking your post indicates. I prefer the much more practical principles of Theravada.
It really isn't your role to decide what a Buddhist is in regard to anyone else but you. I'm not interested in Zen because of just the kind of thinking your post indicates. I prefer the much more practical principles of Theravada.
I am not a Zen Buddhist.
I do not know how you would practice Buddhism without believing in emptiness. It is a core principle.
I do not know how you would practice Buddhism without believing in emptiness. It is a core principle.
Peace to you.
For me, the core principles are the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path to limit clinging and craving, to properly undersand the concept of karma, to develop skillful actions that limit or eliminate suffering, and the cultivation of ethical behavior.
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