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I understand that part, I just don't see anything new or unique except a rotary engine.
Range-Extender Electric Vehicles (REEVs)
REEVs have a large battery and an engine that only generates electricity to charge the battery. This means that the vehicle's primary power source is still electricity, with the engine acting as an auxiliary power unit to extend the range when needed.
BMW i3: The BMW i3 is available as both a REEV and a PHEV.
Chevrolet Volt/Bolt: Chevrolet offers both the Volt PHEV and the Bolt REEV. .
I'm sure there are more but its too early to google that much lol Just saying this is nothing new and as exciting as you are claiming it is imo.
Yes, it is to soon to tell if the Mazda Iconic SP concept car will achieve a range of 600 to over 1,000 miles having the generators maintaining a fully charged battery, considering that the engine is not being used to propel the vehicle. All hybrid cars alternate between the battery and engine to power the motors, while the Iconic SP uses the engine to charge the battery (only). However, the point is that any new technological improvements to "range extenders" is a plus relating to hybrid automobile design. But for now the Iconic SP seems like a great design. It is my belief that the hybrid/electric car of the future won't need large batteries to extend the drive range; instead, this car will generate its own electricity to power the motors.
The drive range talked about should be somewhere around 5.30 minutes in the video:
Mazda announced a rotary engine range extender in 2020 and this topic is citing an article from 2023 about a concept vehicle. It's 2024 now and a mass production Mazda MX-30 with a rotary engine extender has already been released in Europe. It might not come stateside, but at you've got the European reviews.
One thing that's unfortunate is that electric range is cut down by quite a bit in the rotary engine extender model to 53 miles on the WLTP rating system and the WLTP rating system is quite generous. It's an odd vehicle overall which I appreciate though its sales apparently aren't great.
A vehicle that was came out with reviews around the same time as the Mazda MX-30 R-EV is the Volvo EX30 battery electric vehicle. They have similar interior usable space, but with the MX-30 being about half a foot longer overall with the same wheelbase since it's based on an ICE platform and less space efficient. They were priced at about the same price in European markets as well. The EX-30 has no range extender and instead just opts for having more range in general with a larger battery pack which also meant it can accelerate much faster since it can output more power even in the base trim, charges much faster at DC charging stations, and gets about 4x the all-electric range of the MX-30 R-EV in exchange for not having the rotary engine extender. This put the MX-30 R-EV in a touch spot in regards to the competition and I think it needs to have a bit of a redesign to be more efficient with space and get more battery capacity while also bringing down the price.
I remember being pretty excited about this when it was first announced. A Wankel engine's strong point is its very high peak power density, but its weak points are that this very high peak power density only occurs within a very narrow band of operating speeds and otherwise is incredibly fuel inefficient outside of that band not just in terms of wasting fuel and its conversion to energy but actually burning incompletely. It seemed like Mazda with its substantial experience with Wankel engines had figured out a perfect application for it as a range extender which would only operate in its narrow peak efficiency band and would take up very little space in the vehicle. Mazda had mentioned that this is great because it would mean far less spent on battery expenses.
Then the MX-30 without the rotary extender came out and it had little range, little battery capacity, and what were the most unusual bits, with a fairly high price for the little range and capacity and under the hood it looked like things were quite roomy as if waiting for a range extender but also quite messy. This didn't bode well because if the vehicle already has such a low battery capacity and such a high price before having a rotary extender, then what was it going to be like with one? Well, ideally would have been an incredibly compact and inexpensive rotary extender actually meant a trade of a massive amount of the already low capacity battery pack and all-electric range, and even after that drop, the rotary extender version came out to be even *more* expensive than the all-electric larger capacity (though still not very competitive) version. It's certainly not a bad vehicle, but I was hoping this was going to have some incredibly good specs since it seemed to make a lot of sense.
I agree all around - the original, pure EV version was lame; and, the idea of a plug-in serial hybrid with plenty of electric-only range and then an application that used the strengths of the rotary engine to provide juice on longer trips sounded good though.
As it's turned out, the serial hybrid version has half the battery of the pure electric version. There is no EPA electric range rating, but since the pure EV model had 92 miles EPA rated range, the hybrid probably has around 45 miles electric only range. I mean, it's good, similar to the RAV4 Prime in EV-mode range... but it no longer sounds very exciting or different in capabilities anyway. The RAV4 Prime also generates spirited acceleration, but the MX-30 hybrid doesn't.
Some positive notes - unlike the RAV4 Prime, the MX-30 hybrid allows modest DC fast-charging - only 36kW, but with the small battery, it should be enough. Another plus is that the serial hybrid version will retail for the same price as the pure EV version. And Inside EVs notes that due to the serial hybrid nature: "On the move, it feels like an EV, not a PHEV, and the driving experience is almost identical to that of the BEV variant." https://insideevs.com/reviews/712120...ange-extender/
P.S. If you had a serial hybrid with 100 miles of EPA electric range, plus 150kW DC fast charging, I think that would be very appealing. The electric range would really cover a lot of local driving use cases - basically within one hour out and one hour back. And when the ICE kicked in, the driving experience would still feel the same because, serial hybrid. Plus range anxiety wouldn't be a thing, no matter what area you were in. And if you wanted to rely on DC fast charging and it was handy, you could do that too. I think technically the engineers could do all that today without any heroics, but maybe the result is judged as too expensive, I don't know. I don't think it should be *that* expensive.
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 03-30-2024 at 06:52 AM..
I agree all around - the original, pure EV version was lame; and, the idea of a plug-in serial hybrid with plenty of electric-only range and then an application that used the strengths of the rotary engine to provide juice on longer trips sounded good though.
As it's turned out, the serial hybrid version has half the battery of the pure electric version. There is no EPA electric range rating, but since the pure EV model had 92 miles EPA rated range, the hybrid probably has around 45 miles electric only range. I mean, it's good, similar to the RAV4 Prime in EV-mode range... but it no longer sounds very exciting or different in capabilities anyway. The RAV4 Prime also generates spirited acceleration, but the MX-30 hybrid doesn't.
Some positive notes - unlike the RAV4 Prime, the MX-30 hybrid allows modest DC fast-charging - only 36kW, but with the small battery, it should be enough. Another plus is that the serial hybrid version will retail for the same price as the pure EV version. And Inside EVs notes that due to the serial hybrid nature: "On the move, it feels like an EV, not a PHEV, and the driving experience is almost identical to that of the BEV variant." https://insideevs.com/reviews/712120...ange-extender/
P.S. If you had a serial hybrid with 100 miles of EPA electric range, plus 150kW DC fast charging, I think that would be very appealing. The electric range would really cover a lot of local driving use cases - basically within one hour out and one hour back. And when the ICE kicked in, the driving experience would still feel the same because, serial hybrid. Plus range anxiety wouldn't be a thing, no matter what area you were in. And if you wanted to rely on DC fast charging and it was handy, you could do that too. I think technically the engineers could do all that today without any heroics, but maybe the result is judged as too expensive, I don't know. I don't think it should be *that* expensive.
As noted in the article (the link you posted) the 2025 Ram Charger 1500 is a very interesting design, but this one does use its V6 engine to power the wheels: https://insideevs.com/news/701194/20...ange-gas-tank/
Quote:
The recently revealed 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger is the world’s first series-hybrid pickup truck. While that might sound a bit pompous, it may also turn out to be the best solution to the biggest problem faced by drivers of all-electric pickups: the dramatic decrease in range when towing or hauling anything close to the vehicle’s limits.
These hybrid technologies' integration are all good news to the automobile industry and the consumer.
As noted in the article (the link you posted) the 2025 Ram Charger 1500 is a very interesting design, but this one does use its V6 engine to power the wheels: https://insideevs.com/news/701194/20...ange-gas-tank/
These hybrid technologies' integration are all good news to the automobile industry and the consumer.
The Ram is also a series hybrid and its V6 is not directly coupled to the wheels. However, it is not the first series hybrid truck. It's the first consumer series hybrid truck in the US which are both pretty large caveats and you need both of them. It's interesting in the sense that it took a long time for the US to get here when the Voltec powertrain likely could have been made earlier and could have been adapted through its lineup more rapidly. I maintain that GM learned the wrong lesson from the Chevrolet Volt and though its failure was the powertrain rather than the segment of small cars was nosediving in the US. They should have kept going with the Voltec and brought it to other types of vehicles and that probably would have seen more success and could have laid the path for other US automakers like Stellantis (which owns RAM) to do the same.
The Ram is also a series hybrid and its V6 is not directly coupled to the wheels. However, it is not the first series hybrid truck. It's the first consumer series hybrid truck in the US which are both pretty large caveats and you need both of them. It's interesting in the sense that it took a long time for the US to get here when the Voltec powertrain likely could have been made earlier and could have been adapted through its lineup more rapidly. I maintain that GM learned the wrong lesson from the Chevrolet Volt and though its failure was the powertrain rather than the segment of small cars was nosediving in the US. They should have kept going with the Voltec and brought it to other types of vehicles and that probably would have seen more success and could have laid the path for other US automakers like Stellantis (which owns RAM) to do the same.
I stand corrected. Also, the European automakers seem to be far ahead of the US in the area of hybrid cars, and even engine design that allow for higher thermal efficiency. The Japanese have been developing engines with high thermal efficiency. Between 2012-2015 Toyota created a high thermally efficient hybrid engine, the TS030, and the trend for higher efficiency continues to this day, specially in F1 racing where 50% engine thermal efficiency was reached a few years ago. Anyway, I would think that the 2025 Ram 1500 will gather a lot of interest from truck buyers.
Agree. Also, both electric motors and engines will go through great transformations in the future. Motors will become smaller or more compact, plus more powerful, just as it has happened to electronic circuits, computers, and so on. Non fume-emitting engines, or at least engines that burn cleaner or ones where the fumes are contained and not emitted into the air, will probably become the norm. This will also happen in the aircraft engine industries. It seems that the European and Japanese engine manufacturers are pushing ahead of the US in hybrid engine technology.
But for the time being there are numerous European hybrid supercars, although out of reach to those who can't afford a few $millions.
I have read RAM is coming out with a new Hybrid pickup. That has an engine that charges the battery, but is NOT connected to the drive train to drive the vehicle. A start in the right direction. EV's and constantly charging is going to get old after a while. Not to mention planning your life and travels around the range you get, with or without various accessories / systems turned on. Self charging, whatever way comes about is the way to go for EV's. Smaller ICE engines is another foolish technology. Using turbo charged 3 cylinder engines to squeeze out HP to push around 4,000+ Ib vehicles just spells trouble waiting to happen. Your taxing the internals of these small engines. But service departments will love you for it.
On another note. I like filling up my Civic that gets a 500 mile range and 40+ mpg. Also, its comforting knowing that remnants Of T-Rex and other dinosaurs are swirling around in my gas tank. Happy Easter.
I have read RAM is coming out with a new Hybrid pickup. That has an engine that charges the battery, but is NOT connected to the drive train to drive the vehicle. A start in the right direction. EV's and constantly charging is going to get old after a while. Not to mention planning your life and travels around the range you get, with or without various accessories / systems turned on. Self charging, whatever way comes about is the way to go for EV's. Smaller ICE engines is another foolish technology. Using turbo charged 3 cylinder engines to squeeze out HP to push around 4,000+ Ib vehicles just spells trouble waiting to happen. Your taxing the internals of these small engines. But service departments will love you for it.
On another note. I like filling up my Civic that gets a 500 mile range and 40+ mpg. Also, its comforting knowing that remnants Of T-Rex and other dinosaurs are swirling around in my gas tank. Happy Easter.
We've already been discussing the RAM series hybrid. It's not really a start as it is picking up something in the US that's been around for a while at this point and hoping that we're not super behind in the global market. It might do well for at least one vehicle generation though it's less clear how useful that will be after that. I think planning your life around charging is essentially only relegated to EV owners who
- do not have the ability to charge at home
- have an older very short range EV and need it for trips longer than short errands
- absolutely need every vehicle to tow heavy loads over long distances
- lives in a place with a winter as long as harsh as Fairbanks, Alaska
Otherwise, people are generally pretty happy to wake up to a "full tank" every day with a vehicle that essentially gets over 100 miles per gallon and gets those "gallons" for a much cheaper price delivered to their home every day and meanwhile completely smokes "efficient" ICE vehicles that are less than half as energy efficient. Of course, a large portion of people don't have the luxury of being able to charge at home right now so that's going to be a major barrier for about half the driving population for at least the next few years and so it's fortunate that there are hybrids to bridge things in the meantime.
I have read RAM is coming out with a new Hybrid pickup. That has an engine that charges the battery, but is NOT connected to the drive train to drive the vehicle. A start in the right direction. EV's and constantly charging is going to get old after a while. Not to mention planning your life and travels around the range you get, with or without various accessories / systems turned on. Self charging, whatever way comes about is the way to go for EV's. Smaller ICE engines is another foolish technology. Using turbo charged 3 cylinder engines to squeeze out HP to push around 4,000+ Ib vehicles just spells trouble waiting to happen. Your taxing the internals of these small engines. But service departments will love you for it.
On another note. I like filling up my Civic that gets a 500 mile range and 40+ mpg. Also, its comforting knowing that remnants Of T-Rex and other dinosaurs are swirling around in my gas tank. Happy Easter.
Yes, that's the 2025 Ram 1500 I was referring to, and the one OyCrumbler corrected me about. But the future will bring smaller ICE engines that are as much if not more powerful than existing ICE engines. For example, the 6-cylinder hybrid F1 engine burns a very small amount of fuel compared to the older F1 V8 engine, and still produces over 1,000 HP. This engine has already reached a thermal efficiency slightly greater than 50%. The newer engines aren't only more compact and powerful, but also lighter than earlier F1 engines. If greater thermal efficiency can be achieved, it means that less and less fuel is consumed and tailpipe emissions are reduced. On top of these, new synthetic fuels to burn cleaner than existing fuels are in the development stages.
Now the idea of having electric motors to propel the vehicle, plus an engine and generators to charge a smaller battery (like the 2025 Ram 1500 and the Mazda Iconic SP) is a great idea as long as the engine has greater thermal efficiency. Electric motors, both AC and DC can be very powerful, and can be used in ships, locomotives, and so on.
Last edited by RayinAK; 03-30-2024 at 09:45 PM..
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