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I think you provided an excellent description. Especially good answer on how the rest of the student body impacts the education you get.
Example: One of my jobs contracted with a local college for training courses -- they just sent us over to the college when they wanted us to pick up a new skill. Sadly the caliber of students were far below my experience. Most were still thinking and processing at the high school level (at best) so class discussions were useless. Often discussions came down to just myself and a couple of other adults who were also there for specific learning. As you said we often didn't say anything because we recognized the awkwardness of it. Overall kind of sad.*
Hmm, obviously you did not attend a "elite" community college.
Kids are kids, and at the "elite" colleges there a lots of spoiled rich kids like George Bush Jr. and Al Gore Jr.
There were both successful being born to rich, powerful families. I am pretty sure that had they been from "normal" families we would have never had to suffer their failures.
Here a couple of guys that attended the same "elite" community college.
Given both their dismal high school academic records you can make the argument that it was the education at the "elite" community college that made the difference. And yes, the caliber of the students was probably much higher than Bush and Gore had to compete with in their "educations".
Colleges that focus on teaching students critical thinking and how solve problems will always do better in careers than students that coasted through college.
But money and family connections will in most cases overcome the best education.
I never said "academically-elite colleges do not (nor need to) dummy-down their programs/classes."
I know you didn’t; I said it relative to my point. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
It's all common sense.
I agree; per the thread, there are those who foolishly want to draw a conclusion relative to college as a whole rather than consider individual talent, career goals and choice (or one’s personal definition of success, for that matter).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 509
But money and family connections will in most cases overcome the best education.
Most folks can’t rely on family money/connections; hence the reason they need the best education (possible) to achieve/align with their career goals (and create their own success).
You’re seriously arguing that which you initially steered re: ‘people who later go to grad and professional school’, which clearly implies at the time of said study, graduate school was (a possibility) at some ‘later date’. You also specifically stated in a previous post the conversation is about undergraduate work.
Point being, relative to an academically-elite school, there’s a huge distinction between an undergraduate degree (particularly depending on the major) vs. a graduate degree in terms of benefit re: specific employers, first-year earnings and so on; needless to say, it is in addition (and relative) to a better education overall. That said, it’s absurd to throw all majors and degrees together with the expectation of a meaningful/universal conclusion, particularly since success is personally defined and not everyone will have the same (career) goals; hence my previous posts, below.
A. Per your first paragraph......so you simply don't know how large sample size retrospective studies work? I didn't see a need to explain they are usually long to very long term in duration and usually rearward looking. Now you know.
B. Literally all you mentioned above is covered in the Krueger and Dale studies.
1. The studies only included top 1, 2, and maybe some 3% students.
2. This cadre of students later dominates law, medicine, engineering, grad business etc.
Krueger was a real pro. Dale is 'til this day. Until you can provide studies that counter their numbers backed conclusions, and peer review I might add, all you are doing is obfuscating or maybe just missing the point?
Obviously, my perspective is relative to my field and educational background. That said, I did previously mention for the majority of students, the college itself matters minimally in securing employment re: teaching, health care, computer science and so on (as long as the appropriate degree is obtained).
In other words, again, it depends on one’s chosen field and career goals (as well as talent/proficiency), particularly relative to highly-competitive fields. That said, I’m amazed at how many threads there are in this forum relative to such. If you don’t think it matters, clearly, you’re not in a position where it does.
Negative. I don't think these bits you are so heavily invested in matter much because the data we have says they don't.
Cannot speak to non-technical degrees, but over the years having hired 100s of scientists and engineers, most with and some without graduate degrees, I would say ...
For those without much work experience, we looked at grades in the context of the perceived quality of the degree and the perceived quality of the college. For graduate degrees we even discriminated based on the reputation of the thesis/dissertation advisor. The best advisors generally had the best students. This was generally proven later on based on post-graduate performance.
Quality of degree. A five-year B.E.E. was worth a lot more than a four-year B.S.E.E., maybe $40-60k difference in starting salary. And a B-student degree from a good engineering school was worth a lot more than an A-student degree from a ( perceived ) mediocre school.
This is not being elitist. This is about better qualifications. Or at least the perception of better qualifications.
Very different for people with real experience. Engineering graduates who were part of a respected cooperative education program got significantly higher offers than those without. Others with actual relevent work experience and demonstrated performance were rated higher than those without, with salaries offered according to that experience.
Yes, sometimes you get someone from a mediocre school who performs very well, and vice versa, but usually the quality of the school and the quality of the degree do matter. At least in my experience ( math, chemistry, physics, engineering, atmospheric science, and environmental science ).
Obviously, my perspective is relative to my field and educational background. That said, I did previously mention for the majority of students, the college itself matters minimally in securing employment re: teaching, health care, computer science and so on (as long as the appropriate degree is obtained).
In other words, again, it depends on one’s chosen field and career goals (as well as talent/proficiency), particularly relative to highly-competitive fields. That said, I’m amazed at how many threads there are in this forum relative to such. If you don’t think it matters, clearly, you’re not in a position where it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_
Negative. I don't think these bits you are so heavily invested in matter much because the data we have says they don't.
Logically-speaking, your ‘data’ (and the interpretation thereof) does not negate the reality that one’s (quality of) education can (and does) affect potential employment and salary range, particularly relative to competitive fields and/or elite companies. It’s not as if this information isn’t readily available to those who want to invest in their future (and decide for themselves); as such, I can’t imagine why the OP is invested in asking such a question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad01
is it really true where you go to college does not affect your employment ?
Hence the reason I stated the (bolded) above, with emphasis on the last statement.
Sure. That's its own point. The issue here is do excellent students enjoy better life outcomes after graduating "prestige" schools over equally excellent students who attend "lesser" schools. The only hard studies we have - and these are large sample size studies authored by legit pros - indicate no.
And Wharton is a graduate business school as stipulated above the laundry really matters in law and graduate business.
Wharton is also the undergraduate business school at Penn. This doesn't seem to be a topic you're familiar with, so I don't really see the point in continuing the discussion.
2.1. To re-seed my point (Krueger and Dale's too).....a niece, who was an outstanding high schooler unadjusted 4.00, NMF, went to second rate Catholic school per scholarship and probably the fourth or fifth best law school in NY. She's now partner track at a boutique law firm making right at whatever that lawyer pay level bit is called.
People are people! For every Ivy League success story, there is a corresponding Ivy League fail-to-thrive example. For every second rate college, it's the same. In fact, a students with a full scholarship shows more common sense than if she graduated with tons of loans at a better school. It's what a person brings with them - work ethnic, personality traits, etc. that makes the success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
The reason said students seek such is to have a leg-up relative to employment, per the thread. The competition is fierce at top law firms as well as Google, McKinsey & Co, BCG, Bain and so on.
You are talking about a very niche market and not about the general population.
I've known employees at the Big Eight accounting firms. The first couple of years, they sleep in the office, shower and dress at work. It's a grueling schedule. My husband's nephew graduated form Northwestern University and was immediately hired at a big 8 accounting firm. He dropped out after the first year - couldn't take the atmosphere or demanding schedule. Again - if you bring that type of personality to the table - good for you. Most people aren't that crazy. In the case of Bain or McKinsey - many people are not that immoral.
BTW - I didn't know Wharton had an undergraduate college either. Only the MBA/grad program. Learned something new.
Again, it depends re: those who are looking to excel beyond ‘average’ and seek to earn significantly more than their counterparts, often out-of-the-gate, relative to highly-competitive fields.
The reason said students seek such is to have a leg-up relative to employment, per the thread. The competition is fierce at top law firms as well as Google, McKinsey & Co, BCG, Bain and so on.
As such, it depends on your field and career goals (and where you’d like to be employed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
You are talking about a very niche market and not about the general population.
Yes, I specifically stated such in several posts; they’re the folks who know/understand/appreciate the difference it can make. Obviously, it’s not applicable to the average student; that said, they wouldn’t be accepted into an Ivy anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
Most people aren't that crazy. In the case of Bain or McKinsey - many people are not that immoral.
It’s bizarre you bring moral judgement to this thread and the employees of Bain and/or McKinsey.
Considering the very recent change at Harvard, one has to wonder if this is even worth a discussion.
A weak CV, coupled with duplicative language without attribution in her Ph.D. thesis, and voila- she's president.
I wonder if her thesis had been written at Kent State instead of Harvard would she have been granted her position?
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