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There are people in 'lofty' position$ of power who do not wish to see Wyoming's population to go (much) farther than 500k.
There are reasons for this, and they ensure it has not, does not & WILL not happen.
It's not you, where you're from, or why you're wanting/needing to come here.
Very simply stated: Wyoming CANNOT support a growing population...it's just not possible...it never has been, and it never will BE possible.
And on the subject of Meeteetse, yes it is nice here...yes the driving to & from Cody (for grocery-runs during winter months) can be challenging for newcomers...but nothing that cannot be overcome, if you are capable of driving with a LIGHT foot, on the gas-pedal.
A good (local) realtor who'se name I see & hear mentioned numerous times is: Echo Renner.
She has a perpetual-ad posted in the Meeteetse Bulletin, but I have no idea how to attach the latest (weekly) copy to my posting here.
If you email me I can forward you today's .pdf copy that showed up in my email inbox a few hrs ago: saddletramp.sj@gmail.com
I'm not trying to scare you and I know a good number of folks who live out there and who LOVE it. But it's not for everyone. It's a completely different world than what you are used to. And what about your wives and kids? Would they all like that kind of isolation?
Meeteetse is another possibility - also 30 minutes from Cody and awesomely beautiful. I "think" land may be more expensive out that way but check for sure if interested. Nice little town but no grocery store, no hospital or medical clinic, one little gas station/post office/couple of burger-bars. That's about it. But if you love to hunt, fish, camp it's a great place to live. The highway between Cody and Meeteese usually closes for a short while a couple of times each winter because of blowing snow. Extremely isolated drive between both towns.
There's also land between Cody and Powell. Less isolated. More expensive. Not sure on availability of lots the size you're looking for, and covenants will likely eat your lunch.
Thanks for the tips!
No kids, they've been out of the houses for many years living their own lives. I'm 68 and trying to retire, but still working about 40 hours a week as an engineer. People won't quit dragging me into projects. Shouldn't complain, they pay me well. My wife works full-time too (pharma rep), but is looking forward to retirement as well.
This has been quite a learning experience!
I do have a question for anyone that knows....
Do they plow the US highway (14,16,20) from Cody to somewhere near the park entrance in winter? Say out past Wapiti? I realize there will be times when it's closed, but hopefully not till spring thaw. Also wondering about the Chief Joseph Scenic Highway (296)?
Do they plow the US highway (14,16,20) from Cody to somewhere near the park entrance in winter? Say out past Wapiti? I realize there will be times when it's closed, but hopefully not till spring thaw. Also wondering about the Chief Joseph Scenic Highway (296)?
With that park entrance closed in the winter, the roads are not plowed to give access near it for the winter.
I've camped out at Buffalo Bill res during the winter months a few times and the windstorms were virtually hurricanes. Had the place to myself, got there in the waning hours of daylight in the afternoon, and had a winterized camper that could deal with the cold. But the incessant buffeting of the strong gusts made it untenable, even with trying to park in the wind shadow of some of the campground structures. We're not talking about a gentle rocking movement, this was violent rocking as you would experience in an eastern USA or gulf hurricane. Each time I've tried that camping trip, I returned to Cody after a few hours and camped out in the wind shadow of the WalMart ... and even then, was tossed around through the entire night as the winds/gusts did not abate all night long. The only respite I ever got from that violent wind was to camp in an alleyway next to a client's storefront across the road from the WalMart. The drawback was that I had to be out of there for their early AM parts delivery the next morning, way before I could start making sales calls in the area.
For the most part, your access to YNP during the winter months can be very limited as storm fronts and cold fronts move through the region. The YNP website and WYDOT road reports are your best resource to plan travel in the region.
As well, check the NOAA weather reports and forecasts for your trip planning. Yes, there will be days when ambient conditions and road conditions will be better than others and it will be realistic to plan a trip. But don't be surprised if a couple of days is the longest opportune time and poor conditions then present for several days. Or road closures are the topic of the day ... or for several days. As a Wyoming traveler, you'll be well advised to have an appropriately equipped vehicle/tires, an "emergency" road kit onboard, and drive with a view that your intended destination for a day may not be a realistic option ... for much of the winter months. I've literally set out in beautiful weather/clear roads for a May sales conference/show in Salt Lake City and been unable to get back past Evanston to Rock Springs for two days as a storm blew through ... and, at that, when WYDOT reopened I-80, it was still a mostly white-knuckle drive. Had I watched the weather forecasts, I'd have delayed my SLC departure and stayed in the comfy condo there I was given to use for a few more days ... instead of finding the roach motel with the last room available in Evanston for big bucks and a door that didn't fit the door jamb and a wall-mounted A/C unit that didn't fit any closer than 1/2" in the wall opening. Suffice to say that the motel isn't high on my recommended list, but there were 3 more cars that pulled into the parking lot after me and if I didn't take the room, one of them would have done so.
That trip recollection leads me to another winter-time driving mention for Wyoming ... the limited availability of rooms along the interstate corridors. Don't kid yourself, when the storm driving conditions get poor, it's better to find a place to stop sooner than later. Or, you too, may discover that the next town 50-100 miles ahead is completely "sold out" of motel rooms and lodging of any sort. I've spent more than a few nights in the back seat of my MB with a sleeping bag in an overcrowded truck stop parking lot ... thankful that they had a wee bit of space for me to safely park my car out of the way ... and a few more nights in a WalMart parking lot in those cars. These situations dictated that I change over to a Class B Roadtrek van, where I had the luxury of a self-contained winterized camper to use as needed in those situations around the region where lodging in adverse conditions simply wasn't available.
I now live about 10 miles from I-80 in SE Wyoming. It's not uncommon to see semi-trucks overflowing the truckstop parking lots in the Cheyenne area all the way to the NE border when road conditions shut down the area. You'll see a mile or two of them jammed on the frontage roads, too ... even in those areas where "no parking on roadway" signs appear. The adverse conditions are more significant than WYDOT ability to get the semi's out of the way.
The bottom line here is that I can't begin to overemphasize the different world of a Wyoming winter and the situations that present here compared to so many other places around the USA that experience a winter clime. What makes the difference is the higher elevation here, prevailing cold fronts that come down from Canada or the Pacific NW, and the long distances between towns and lesser population density to be able to support and provide services that folk take as routine in other places. Take the time to check out the map of Wyoming and see for yourself the distances between population centers along the interstate highways, or the state highways. This is no joke, there's a fair number of interstate intersections that service a ranch road leading to no commercial activity ... no truck stop, no restaurants, no lodging, nothing but open spaces in many places not much more developed than they were in the 1880's.
Let me give you an example of how removed the realities are here from other places ... June of this year. I had a breakdown in my Roadtrek on a Friday afternoon on State Highway 586 near Mule Creek Junction. A new serpentine belt, which I had replaced a few weeks prior when I had serviced the vehicle, had a catastrophic failure. Foolish me, I hadn't put the old serviceable one in the rig as an emergency spare. The Dodge van limped back to Newcastle WY at 30 mph, with frequent stops to let it cool down before starting out again for a few miles. I made it to Newcastle around 7 pm. Everything closed, no service or parts available. I tried everybody, including some of the home based repair shop on the off chance that they might be of assistance. No joy there. Everybody closed until Monday, or the guy that would have come out to help didn't have the part on hand. I then called my Triple A emergency roadside assistance service. They did their research, checked with their service providers ... and found out that their service contracted provider tow service/repair shops were based in Gillette or in Lusk. Neither business was contracted to go the distance to Newcastle, so they would not respond to help me as a Triple A emergency provider. I then called them individually, and the shops didn't have the part on hand ... so towing to either location was futile until Monday. And they wanted an exhorbitant amount of money for the tow service, too. So much for spending $100+/year for an "emergency roadside service" ... worthless. Triple A told me to make my "own arrangements" and they'd pick up the tow charge after I'd paid it. But Triple A left me stranded, not good.
I'd parked in the Newcastle WY NAPA parking lot, and had my lodging/food in my camper, so was reasonably comfortable and could run my A/C off my on-board generator until Monday when they opened. But on that Saturday morning, the owner & manager of the NAPA auto parts store dropped in to do some inventory and quarterly tax reporting. Wow! I'm thinking that my problem is solved, I can get a new serp belt and install it with my tools and I'll be on the road again. I walked in to their office and asked for a new serp belt. Uh-Uh .. we don't stock that belt. What? this belt fits millions of Dodge 5ltr magnum engines built for decades in vans, trucks, and cars ... and you don't stock it? OK, when may one be available? Well, we'll check with our sister NAPA stores on the computer and one of our wives will go fetch it today ... for $100. Nope, not available in Gillette, Casper, Douglas, Wheatland, or Spearfish SD. The best they can do is order it on Monday from their Rapid City SD warehouse and have it delivered on Tuesday. That's the BEST they can do, and that's business as usual for them. Have a nice day, buddy, if the camper doesn't work out, there's a motel just down the street that's open and the food mart is a couple blocks away, too. No restaurants open in the area, sorry.
As life would have it, my wife mentions to a neighbor that I'm stranded in Newcastle and he offers to find a new belt and bring it up to me. The Cheyenne Advance Auto Parts store has the belts in stock, so he buys two (one to install, one for spare to carry) and drives up Sunday AM. 15 minutes to install the belt and I'm back on the road. No thanks to any local or regional business or auto parts store.
The above is a bit of a long story ... but here's the take-away: This was in a fair weather month, good driving weather. The regional auto parts supply and service network completely failed to support me, and the national "emergency road service" provider couldn't do a thing, either. Put this in a wintertime perspective and it's an even more daunting bunch of problems. Is this something you'd expect to easily solve back where you live now? It's not Wyoming.
Sounds dangerous to buy land, or any other kind of real estate in WY.
I'm really surprised that there's no disclosure provision/laws. If a buyer asks a specific question, and the seller lies in response to it, doesn't disclose the problem, and that costs the buyer $, it seems crazy that there's no recourse for the buyer....other than just to take them to civil court. That happens over here to, but rarely because a seller that doesn't disclose almost always loses...and the realtor may lose their license too. In our case, we complained, and get a $5k reimbursement. They did not wish to go to court.
On the weather / winter side, we tend to mostly hibernate in the winter anyway. As long as the power is on (or I can run the generator) and the propane truck can fill me up (or I have wood for the stove), I'm generally OK. We've actually been looking over by Powell because there seems to be less snow over there...really not that much according to City Data. Ya, the wind could be annoying. Because of the tips we've gotten here, we'll make darn sure the house seals-up really really well.
Road access is something we will put more emphasis on. We were planning to get a tractor for plowing the road anyway, but the closer we are to hard pavement the better I'd guess. I get it. Sometimes even the paved roads get closed for a while after a bad storm. I've been stranded in a hotel in Hays KS for most of a week before with I-70 closed. Snow drifts can make for some hard work to clear. I'll check with the county on specific roads near the sites, and ask if those roads get cleared as much as possible during winter weather. Perhaps we need to add a snowmobile to the list of expenses. Might be fun too!
From what you are describing, it sounds like some of the recent "big city runaways" might be putting their properties up for sale in a year or so. Perhaps we should wait for that.
Dave O.
some of the snow country like Star Valley , road get plowed and kept open . See county plows out really eary so School buses can make their runs . some of the more open windy county there can be closed roads till any storm is over .
I'm starting to get depressed at the thought of no one in WY I can put some trust in.
From the tone of this thread lately, it sounds like no one can drive anywhere out there for 6 months out of the year, and every realtor is a crook.
I do appreciate the cautions...really, and I will pay attention to them, but I can't imagine how it can be that bad, and have permanent residents with kids who need to go to school, homes, etc.
It snows, I get it. It's cold, I get it. It's windy, I get it. But honestly, it snows a lot more in a lot of other places, and is colder in a lot of other places. When I'm in the mountains, I find that I don't notice the cold as much because of the low humidity. Plus I'm so distracted by the beauty of it all.
We prefer cold to hot and humid anyway. We just extended our last trip to CO a couple of weeks ago by a week because of the snowstorm coming in. In Georgetown, one day it was almost 90, and the next it was 28 (for the high!), and we loved every single minute of the 10 inches of snow and 28 degrees!
There are people in 'lofty' position$ of power who do not wish to see Wyoming's population to go (much) farther than 500k.
There are reasons for this, and they ensure it has not, does not & WILL not happen.
It's not you, where you're from, or why you're wanting/needing to come here.
Very simply stated: Wyoming CANNOT support a growing population...it's just not possible...it never has been, and it never will BE possible.
[/email]
Just wondering why you believe this to be true? I can understand people wishing the state would remain with a low population density. There are many problems with high pop density. Just look at the east and west coasts, and big cities like Chicago. That's where high pop density gets you, and I'd want no part of it either. But "CANNOT support a growing population" is pretty strong language. Please explain.
Dave O.
With that park entrance closed in the winter, the roads are not plowed to give access near it for the winter.
I've camped out at Buffalo Bill res during the winter months a few times and the windstorms were virtually hurricanes. Had the place to myself, got there in the waning hours of daylight in the afternoon, and had a winterized camper that could deal with the cold. But the incessant buffeting of the strong gusts made it untenable, even with trying to park in the wind shadow of some of the campground structures. We're not talking about a gentle rocking movement, this was violent rocking as you would experience in an eastern USA or gulf hurricane. Each time I've tried that camping trip, I returned to Cody after a few hours and camped out in the wind shadow of the WalMart ... and even then, was tossed around through the entire night as the winds/gusts did not abate all night long. The only respite I ever got from that violent wind was to camp in an alleyway next to a client's storefront across the road from the WalMart. The drawback was that I had to be out of there for their early AM parts delivery the next morning, way before I could start making sales calls in the area.
For the most part, your access to YNP during the winter months can be very limited as storm fronts and cold fronts move through the region. The YNP website and WYDOT road reports are your best resource to plan travel in the region.
As well, check the NOAA weather reports and forecasts for your trip planning. Yes, there will be days when ambient conditions and road conditions will be better than others and it will be realistic to plan a trip. But don't be surprised if a couple of days is the longest opportune time and poor conditions then present for several days. Or road closures are the topic of the day ... or for several days. As a Wyoming traveler, you'll be well advised to have an appropriately equipped vehicle/tires, an "emergency" road kit onboard, and drive with a view that your intended destination for a day may not be a realistic option ... for much of the winter months. I've literally set out in beautiful weather/clear roads for a May sales conference/show in Salt Lake City and been unable to get back past Evanston to Rock Springs for two days as a storm blew through ... and, at that, when WYDOT reopened I-80, it was still a mostly white-knuckle drive. Had I watched the weather forecasts, I'd have delayed my SLC departure and stayed in the comfy condo there I was given to use for a few more days ... instead of finding the roach motel with the last room available in Evanston for big bucks and a door that didn't fit the door jamb and a wall-mounted A/C unit that didn't fit any closer than 1/2" in the wall opening. Suffice to say that the motel isn't high on my recommended list, but there were 3 more cars that pulled into the parking lot after me and if I didn't take the room, one of them would have done so.
That trip recollection leads me to another winter-time driving mention for Wyoming ... the limited availability of rooms along the interstate corridors. Don't kid yourself, when the storm driving conditions get poor, it's better to find a place to stop sooner than later. Or, you too, may discover that the next town 50-100 miles ahead is completely "sold out" of motel rooms and lodging of any sort. I've spent more than a few nights in the back seat of my MB with a sleeping bag in an overcrowded truck stop parking lot ... thankful that they had a wee bit of space for me to safely park my car out of the way ... and a few more nights in a WalMart parking lot in those cars. These situations dictated that I change over to a Class B Roadtrek van, where I had the luxury of a self-contained winterized camper to use as needed in those situations around the region where lodging in adverse conditions simply wasn't available.
I now live about 10 miles from I-80 in SE Wyoming. It's not uncommon to see semi-trucks overflowing the truckstop parking lots in the Cheyenne area all the way to the NE border when road conditions shut down the area. You'll see a mile or two of them jammed on the frontage roads, too ... even in those areas where "no parking on roadway" signs appear. The adverse conditions are more significant than WYDOT ability to get the semi's out of the way.
The bottom line here is that I can't begin to overemphasize the different world of a Wyoming winter and the situations that present here compared to so many other places around the USA that experience a winter clime. What makes the difference is the higher elevation here, prevailing cold fronts that come down from Canada or the Pacific NW, and the long distances between towns and lesser population density to be able to support and provide services that folk take as routine in other places. Take the time to check out the map of Wyoming and see for yourself the distances between population centers along the interstate highways, or the state highways. This is no joke, there's a fair number of interstate intersections that service a ranch road leading to no commercial activity ... no truck stop, no restaurants, no lodging, nothing but open spaces in many places not much more developed than they were in the 1880's.
Let me give you an example of how removed the realities are here from other places ... June of this year. I had a breakdown in my Roadtrek on a Friday afternoon on State Highway 586 near Mule Creek Junction. A new serpentine belt, which I had replaced a few weeks prior when I had serviced the vehicle, had a catastrophic failure. Foolish me, I hadn't put the old serviceable one in the rig as an emergency spare. The Dodge van limped back to Newcastle WY at 30 mph, with frequent stops to let it cool down before starting out again for a few miles. I made it to Newcastle around 7 pm. Everything closed, no service or parts available. I tried everybody, including some of the home based repair shop on the off chance that they might be of assistance. No joy there. Everybody closed until Monday, or the guy that would have come out to help didn't have the part on hand. I then called my Triple A emergency roadside assistance service. They did their research, checked with their service providers ... and found out that their service contracted provider tow service/repair shops were based in Gillette or in Lusk. Neither business was contracted to go the distance to Newcastle, so they would not respond to help me as a Triple A emergency provider. I then called them individually, and the shops didn't have the part on hand ... so towing to either location was futile until Monday. And they wanted an exhorbitant amount of money for the tow service, too. So much for spending $100+/year for an "emergency roadside service" ... worthless. Triple A told me to make my "own arrangements" and they'd pick up the tow charge after I'd paid it. But Triple A left me stranded, not good.
I'd parked in the Newcastle WY NAPA parking lot, and had my lodging/food in my camper, so was reasonably comfortable and could run my A/C off my on-board generator until Monday when they opened. But on that Saturday morning, the owner & manager of the NAPA auto parts store dropped in to do some inventory and quarterly tax reporting. Wow! I'm thinking that my problem is solved, I can get a new serp belt and install it with my tools and I'll be on the road again. I walked in to their office and asked for a new serp belt. Uh-Uh .. we don't stock that belt. What? this belt fits millions of Dodge 5ltr magnum engines built for decades in vans, trucks, and cars ... and you don't stock it? OK, when may one be available? Well, we'll check with our sister NAPA stores on the computer and one of our wives will go fetch it today ... for $100. Nope, not available in Gillette, Casper, Douglas, Wheatland, or Spearfish SD. The best they can do is order it on Monday from their Rapid City SD warehouse and have it delivered on Tuesday. That's the BEST they can do, and that's business as usual for them. Have a nice day, buddy, if the camper doesn't work out, there's a motel just down the street that's open and the food mart is a couple blocks away, too. No restaurants open in the area, sorry.
As life would have it, my wife mentions to a neighbor that I'm stranded in Newcastle and he offers to find a new belt and bring it up to me. The Cheyenne Advance Auto Parts store has the belts in stock, so he buys two (one to install, one for spare to carry) and drives up Sunday AM. 15 minutes to install the belt and I'm back on the road. No thanks to any local or regional business or auto parts store.
The above is a bit of a long story ... but here's the take-away: This was in a fair weather month, good driving weather. The regional auto parts supply and service network completely failed to support me, and the national "emergency road service" provider couldn't do a thing, either. Put this in a wintertime perspective and it's an even more daunting bunch of problems. Is this something you'd expect to easily solve back where you live now? It's not Wyoming.
I'm starting to get depressed at the thought of no one in WY I can put some trust in.
From the tone of this thread lately, it sounds like no one can drive anywhere out there for 6 months out of the year, and every realtor is a crook.
I do appreciate the cautions...really, and I will pay attention to them, but I can't imagine how it can be that bad, and have permanent residents with kids who need to go to school, homes, etc.
It snows, I get it. It's cold, I get it. It's windy, I get it. But honestly, it snows a lot more in a lot of other places, and is colder in a lot of other places. When I'm in the mountains, I find that I don't notice the cold as much because of the low humidity. Plus I'm so distracted by the beauty of it all.
We prefer cold to hot and humid anyway. We just extended our last trip to CO a couple of weeks ago by a week because of the snowstorm coming in. In Georgetown, one day it was almost 90, and the next it was 28 (for the high!), and we loved every single minute of the 10 inches of snow and 28 degrees!
Dave O.
Sorry, Dave, but you're "not getting it".
Your perceptions of Wyoming are apparently based on a few tourist visits to the area in what you want to believe is here rather than the simple realities that those of us who have been here for decades ... have experienced.
I can only point out again that so much that you take for granted for resources, access, transportation, services, shopping, entertainment, recreation ... is a paradigm which does not present here in Wyoming. The small towns in your part of the USA still have access to all the development, commerce, and supporting infrastructure that is significantly absent here in Wyoming.
Yes, schools operate on days when most other places would have a "snow day", and social activities are dealt with. But a day or two with a wide temperature swing and moisture ... such as we also had here in Wyoming (yeah, it was 28F in my alfalfa and millet fields and I was in a panic over getting the alfalfa cut/baled/stacked off the field before the hard freeze) at the same time of your Colorado visit ... is a far cry from a 6-month winter season where it can repeat several times in a fall-winter or winter-spring cycle.
I've seen more "gone in 2" disappointed in Wyoming people than you can imagine ... and it's not because I personally chased them out. The number #1 reason given to me was the extreme winds on end, and #2 was the endlessly long winters. Also mentioned was the lack of entertainment, access to recreation, lack of conveniences such as the late-night restaurant or the food delivery, or simply dealing with the realities of cabin fever when they wanted to "do something". In my experience, a lot of folk post here that they're pretty independent and self-reliant and a couple days without their fast food fix is "no problem"; but thinking it while it's your normal behavior pattern and living it when it's no longer an option for days/weeks on end ... it's a whole 'nother paradigm.
I suspect that you may be stuck in the concept that "deep snow" is the primary problem here on driving the roads. It's not. The problem is a combination of black ice frozen on the road and the extreme wind gusts that affect the vehicle travel. Also, low visibility due to the wind-driven snow, and frequent road snowdrifts between snowplow passes. The plows frequently have only the time to plow one lane on a multi-lane highway to allow vehicles to get through ... better than a shut-down, sometimes.
What you may be missing is that over half of Wyoming's land mass is Fed public lands, not available for private development. You'll travel through a lot of Wyoming and look at substantially undeveloped land vistas ... because it cannot be developed due to Federal polices over the years. What rankles is that the Feds don't have the manpower or financial resources to maintain and operate a lot of these recreational acres, so they are seasonally closed off to public access. The place that you hiked up to in a summer vacation may be totally inaccessible ... or traveled to "at your own risk" through deep snowdrifts ...
As well, water ... a resource you take for granted in your part of the world ... is a scarce commodity. In some places, potable water isn't available at all even if you drill the monster producing domestic deep well to find water. In some places, water isn't available at all, and you get to haul in your domestic potable water to a cistern ... at substantial expense. Western water law, and Wyoming's specifically ... is a whole new game for your back East mentality. Additionally, Wyoming is a "headwaters" state, obligated by Federal compacts to deliver most of it's water to the downstream states. Those compacts were devised years ago when the amount of water available wasn't accurately measured over decades, and the fact is that Wyoming water is oversubscribed to our neighbors; ie, we frequently cannot deliver the water we're obligated by law to let go downstream. In drought years, we've actually had municipal water systems run out of water in their supply, and cannot deliver water to their customers even with extreme conservation orders. Water compact delivery is the source of numerous lawsuits that take years to wend their way through the courts; I recall one suit recenlty adjudicated in NE where it was determined that the Farmers and domestic users in WY had "shorted" (to their sole benefit) the Nebraska water system and were going to be held individually responsible for their consumption that injured the Nebraska users. Yes, it was only a matter of pennies per acre foot of water, but thousands upon thousands of acre-feet shortages over decades starts adding up to $millions of dollars owed in damages to Nebraska, and the Wyoming water users were ordered to "pay up". MT has had their share of lawsuits against WY, too, for undelivered water. And Colorado has had their finger in the pie, too, with recent proposals to build new water delivery systems to more efficiently deliver "their" water rather than see it lost in Wyoming's streambeds before reaching Colorado.
Other places may have more total snowfall, true ... but the terrain, weather patterns, and population density over much shorter distances contribute to a much higher service level of clearing and maintaining the roads.
With some of the highest wind energy density in the continental USA, WY dry snow in the cold weather doesn't melt into the ground. We don't "salt" the roads because the melted snow will refreeze into a hard black ice layer, causing yet more driving problems We don't plow every road, either. As Jody pointed out, school bus routes and high profile emergency service vehicle access roads are the priority for the plows. They do their best, but it's not uncommon for huge snowdrifts to form across the roadway within minutes of a plow clearing the road. Again, these wind-driven snowfalls lying upon the ground near the roadway days after an active windstorm can yet create blizzard-like conditions for days on end after the storm front passage, yielding low-no visibility, black ice, and similar snowfall conditions that are not going to be mitigated by a snowplow. Or, for that matter, you driving the biggest baddest snow machine you can think of buying that's gonna' make you king of the winter driving ... until you can't see over the hood at 5 mph and the road has "disappeared" under the layer of ice and snow.
There are very few, in fact, places around the USA that have colder degree day winters than the Rocky Mountains and through the higher elevations of Wyoming. Perhaps, one or two. Sault Ste Marie comes to mind as a possible, but if you'll do your research, you'll find that the Rocky Mountains blow the doors off all the cold places you typically think of ... including Maine. That's the total number of degree heating days that you experience in a winter. Wyoming has a head start on such conditions because the winter lasts for so many months. Again, I urge you to try to understand what elevations above 6,000' for much of Wyoming deliver ... it's a concept that's just not gonna' register in your outlook from a lower elevation riparian state. Even Laramie, at 6,000' elevation, is substantially colder on a summer day than my last house in East Vail CO.
Allow me to point out that I was a Vail CO residential owner from 1982 through just recently when the hysteria of property values there and costs of keeping tenant occupied homes functional from a long distance forced me to sell out. I ski'ed Aspen from the mid-1960's and was one of the early investors in Vail, skiing there for 80+ day seasons for decades as it was only an hour and a half to my 2nd homes from home. Yeah, there's lots more snow over the passes there, and lots of snow in East Vail where I had my places. But the TOV plowed every street on a 30-45 minute schedule and permitted only off-street parking to allow the plowing, trash vehicles, service vehicles, and muni buses to run on schedule. I've got records dating back for decades about maintaining those houses in a "ski resort town", and the heating degree days was typically less than the degree days here at my SE Wyoming ranch at 5,000' elevation. The big differences? warmer actual temps in Vail and substantially less winds/gusts.
I attempted to illustrate a not too unusual situation for you with my Dodge Roadtrek story. The bottom line is ... the bottom line. The NAPA branch store in Newcastle, and those in regional "big" Wyoming towns ... don't stock what amounts to a very common part that is a no-brainer to stock with inventory returns on investment. As it happens, I'd also asked for a replacement alternator because I'd just recently replaced the failed original one in my van and was concerned that the "rebuilt" one had seized up, causing the serp belt failure. There wasn't a replacement to be had except in Casper, many miles away on the Friday afternoon. Luckily, I didn't need it or it would have been days before I'd received it. You don't have this type of episode in your current location because nearby "big cities" or population centers can justify stocking inventory to a much higher level and turn-over. Again, this type of situation doesn't have much meaning to folk out of state moving here ... until the day comes when you're the one stranded on the road with few options and possibly facing outrageous repair bills just to make it home.
'nother example: my last Wisconsin neighbors, now returned there, high-centered their Ford Expedition on snowdrifts a couple miles from their home, not too far from my place. They couldn't get anybody to come tow them out, the wrecker services were swamped with days worth of interstate highway recoveries due to so many vehicles off the road, and that's a priority contracted business for them with the state. My neighbors, desperate to see that their kids at least got home, called me to ask if there was anything I could do to help. Well, yes ... have the kids walk back 1/4 mile to the road before the drifts and I'll pick them up with my little 'ol Subaru and get them home. Anything else? can you fire up one of your field tractors and tow us out? Yes, but that will take awhile for the block heater to warm the diesel up enough to reasonably start. A couple hours later, I returned to the scene of the stuck vehicle and towed it out ... my neighbor was such a wimp that I'm the one who got out of my tractor and hooked up the tow chain, he couldn't fathom how to do it or risk getting his nicer shoes wet and getting cold. I was thanked for my assistance, but would've appreciated that my neighbor help with the process ... or given me a nice card that Christmas. None forthcoming, with the months later announcement that they were moving back to Wisconsin because winter life there was "easier" than here in Wyoming. When they moved here, the access to trail riding their horses and back-country recreation was the cat's meow ... until their first winter. They didn't like it, and drove "back home" for a number of weeks then. As far as I was concerned, it was only a matter of time before they threw in the towel in Wyoming.
No, every realtor is "not a crook". They are performing to the level of ethics that has been culturally defined by law here. But they do have limitations that don't present in other states. So they have mastered the arts of non-disclosure with an attitude of "buyer beware". I repeatedly have posted these situations because so many folk come here and expect an entirely different real estate buying experience. I cannot emphasize strongly enough that you must do your own "due diligence" about every aspect of your real estate purchase here in Wyoming. That means doing your own survey, checking on filed easements, water and mineral rights, prescriptive easement use that you must accept or get terminated, utiiltiies access ... (wait until you get quoted $5-figures to deliver power to your rural site, payable in monthly installments ... forever), discover what it's gonna' cost to plow the access to your driveway, and then the time/effort/equipment that it takes to clear your driveway, too. Just because you can make it to a county road doesn't mean it's gonna' be and stay plowed ... and even though the county road school bus routes get plow priority, the land topography can lend itself to drifting back in a matter of minutes ... as it does on the county road by my place and the school kids have learned to snowmobile out 3/4 mile to a less exposed spot where the bus can pick them up on bad days.
On plowing snow ... one of my neighbors put his house and garage on "top of the hill" so he could enjoy the mountain vistas to the West. Come the first winter, he discovers that the winds are so strong that his new 2-car garage blows a snowdrift past the seals and makes getting out of his garage almost impossible in the AM ... or, the bigger issue, when he returns home at night and his garage is blown full of snow, 6' high or more. The guy was the used car manager of a new car dealership in town and had the pick of 4x4 drivers every day. He figured he'd always be able to get home. Ah, the small valley that the county road traverses fills in ... even the post office will not attempt delivery down that stretch and there's a row of mailboxes on the county road North his road about a mile up the road. He, too, got in the habit of driving a snowmobile to the county road better location and parked his truck on the corner of my place a few times ... until we had that "discussion" about him parking in front of a livestock gate through which I might need access. He found another neighbor who let him build a garage on their place, so he kept the daily 4x4 in the garage and snowmobiled to/from home when conditions warranted. But then, after 6 years, he moved back to Texas. Couldn't take anymore of the Wyoming winters and the view wasn't an option during the limited visibility days.
You've been given good advice about visiting here during the winter months with an eye as a resident, perhaps renting a place for awhile to get the feel for it and making an informed decision about relocating here. As well, buying a parcel sight unseen is simply not a good thing to do as you need to do a lot of local investigations before signing anything or handling over any money. In today's RE dealings, it's not uncommon that an earnest money deposit may be non-refundable unless there's a gross error from the RE agency. You'll find out that most agents here will not make actionable statements, there's always an "out" ... and your blind acceptance of something that they may have "inferred" because it's a standard item "back home" for you ... won't be the basis to get your refund.
Wishing you the "best of luck" with your relocation. We're not trying to scare you, but we are concerned that you operate from a knowledgeable basis. There's been many a post here on C-D through the years from folk who didn't and got bitten. You don't have to be one of them, but you do need to abandon everything "you know" about many aspects of your life and business dealings to fit in with a Wyoming residency. It may or may not 'work for you", so being forewarned about some of the key differences is critical. Especially with the RE folk ... ask specific questions and get specific answers rather than vague acknowledgements or assumptions that you accept. You've already been down the road with extreme covenants ... some of those I've read and they're simply not appropriate for the area, even if you had that kind of money to spend. Yeah, gotta' have outbuildings and approved structures to hide any aspect of you actual living in the place. I know some folk who spent more on those structures than I paid for my farm.
Just wondering why you believe this to be true? I can understand people wishing the state would remain with a low population density. There are many problems with high pop density. Just look at the east and west coasts, and big cities like Chicago. That's where high pop density gets you, and I'd want no part of it either. But "CANNOT support a growing population" is pretty strong language. Please explain.
Dave O.
A couple of major problems:
1) lack of domestic water supply for all the "new" residents
2) lack of available land for development. So much of this state is public lands not available and will remain that way given the rabid enviro's attitudes about sustainable development.
You may want to check out "Agenda 21", or it's successor proposals. Your desire to live in these open spaces and have them available for recreation is totally against their programs. Only the enlightened few plan to have access to what we have here, the rest of the population will be banned ... forever.
3) there's a lot of reasons why various industries will not locate here ... power supply, water supply, communications, transportation, sanitation/sewage processing, existing population base to be the "worker bees". The net effect is that big number jobs outfits look to other population centers for their projects and offices.
Even when the new supercomputing center was built here, the majority of the higher paid staff jobs were given to their Colorado counterparts, even though Cheyenne had a fair number of qualified techs. The few jobs that Cheyenne residents got were the low-pay facilities maintenance jobs or similar. The facility is basically run by the Fort Collins folk, remotely.
4) Same thing with the atom smasher facility built here. The high paying jobs mostly went to out of state folk and the lower paying support staff and facilities maintenance jobs went to Cheyenne folk.
5) Look at wage scales vs cost of living here. School bus drivers work part-time and get around $15.50/hour. It was a big deal when the big box stores built distribution centers here at the cross roads of I-80 and I-25. Many service level people jumped at the opportunity to get a $12.50/hour full time job with benefits and retirement programs.
I'm a Master mechanic, with cert's in auto and class 8 diesel. Also, decades of experience working on Euro motorcycles, and outboard engines ... along with aircraft proficiency (no, I didn't get my AI ticket when it was there almost for the asking as I didn't want to work in that field). Two of the local new motorcycle/RV/ATV dealerships were seeking new techs to staff up their shops. Just for grins, I applied. I got a job offer of $12/hr, with a "suggestion" that if I "knew my stuf and could be productive", they'd eventually bring me up to $15/hr, no bene's no uniforms no tools, provide your own, which I have a decent professional collection of tool truck tools and toolboxes. The measure of comparison I was given was two 19-year olds that had been working at the place for about 2 years and attended a couple of factory service schools. Well, I'd seen their work in the shop and wasn't impressed ... as a 35-yr owner of an indie auto shop that specialized in MB, BMW, and exotic euro imports ... and I had a sizable following that wasn't happy when I closed the doors. I thanked the shop owner for his offer and pointed out that I was used to a sizable "flat rate" income opportunity ... where I typically knocked down well over 50% of his shop billing rate. Told him I'd not consider loading up one of my toolboxes ... which had more tools than the entire shop ... unless he was interested in employing a real "professional" tech. The guy is still employing teen agers and beginners ... and wonders why he's got shop issues with high turnover.
Similarly, the new car dealers in this town have a culture of ripping off the clientele, and still have an exceptionally high turn-over in every aspect of their dealerships. Ah ... but that's a long story for another thread, one day.
So, essentially, the labor market throughout the state is acclimated to paying some of the lowest wages in the nation. With the exception of the union shops, such as the oil/gas industry or extractive industries, average weekly wages are generally bare-bones for many folk. At that, the hospitality industry pays poorly and typically shuts down for the winter months. Go to any restaurant around the state and you'll again see substantial turn-over as people cannot afford to live here and have a meaningful life. Another segment that sees high turnover ... the lower level Fed and State jobs. Check out WYatWork website and see what they're offering. Unless many folk have two family members working and living on the cheap, it's a tough existence here ... and those are considered to be some of the "better jobs" with security and advancement potential, pay raises just for longevity ... or school teachers that can get raises with more degrees and years on the job.
I'd also mention the medical professionals here. The turn-over as doc's seek greener pastures and higher pay is phenomenal. It's the reason why I suggest that you seek your medical providers outside of Wyoming. All of the doc's I started with for my specialties have had numerous replacements over the decades ... with the exception of one internal medicine doc that I wouldn't let work on a dying dog. Or that idiot who called me about fencing me out of my property, he must have been an affirmative action graduate at the bottom of his class; another doc I wouldn't trust to do competent work. For a long time now, I go to Fort Collins or the Aurora center.
Last edited by sunsprit; 09-24-2020 at 01:38 AM..
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