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Been reading a LOT of threads here, but posting for the first time. Seems like a great place for relocation advice.
My brother and I, and our wives are seriously considering a move to Wyoming. Right now the areas near Cody, mostly in Park County seems really attractive to us all, but we're not absolutely locked into that. We have RV camped in the area, and love it there (who wouldn't)!
We presently live in Missouri, which isn't so bad, but we really don't tolerate the humidity (like 90% when the temps are 95 deg) anymore very well. We are all absolute mountain freaks too...Just LOVE being there, or at least close enough that we can get there easily. Cold doesn't really bother us much. It gets below zero here too, but with the high humidity, it feels much colder than similar temps in the mountains. Been there quite a lot, and experienced it first-hand.
We've been working on this for years. We have set a budget, money saved-up, and know what size plot of ground we are looking for. The goal would be to perhaps split up something between 10 and 40 acres between us. We fully understand that there's going to be expenses to get almost any site build-ready. The land would be a cash sale, and we should be able to handle most of the site prep and building with cash as well. SS, pension, and 401k money should provide for our living expenses, plus we might setup some AirBnB space in the houses as well for a little extra income. Still working, but will soon retire.
We really love Wyoming! Almost everything about it (other than Teton County) fits quite well with our priorities...Conservative values, political, life-style, etc.
The problem we are having is that the realtors in the area just don't seem interested in responding to our requests for info on various offerings...Either via email, or phone. I know real estate is hot right now, but you would think we wouldn't need to wait days for any kind of a response, if we get one at all. Frequently we don't. We are 1000+ miles away, and really need some helpful eyes and ears locally.
Is it just the area? Is it just that real estate is so hot right now? Is it that we aren't locals?
I've heard that there's some bias against folks moving there (and MT) from other states, at least with some natives. Please understand...We are NOT looking to change Wyoming in ANY way (other than building a couple of houses). We love it just the way it is! That's why we want to live there. We aren't CA crazies who want to re-make WY into our own "liberal utopia"...that's for darn sure.
Hoping for some feedback from some local folks who might have some suggestions.?.
David
If you’ve been following C-D threads for awhile, you may have seen some of my posts about the real estate agent & agencies practices in WY. You need to be aware that the levels of performance, ethics, and professionalism that you have come to take for granted in other markets around the country will not be found here.
That an agent isn’t being responsive to your inquiry doesn’t surprise me. They get tons of “looky lous” who are not capable of fulfilling their dream of relocating to WY ... especially with so many folk thinking that the disneyized concept of WY (it’s all mountains and YNP and gorgeous vistas and Jackson Hole 24/7/365, right?) is to be found here for next to nothing. It’s got nothing to do with your intended relocation ... but everything to do with the fact that you’re not on the agent’s doorstep with funds in hand ready to sign a contract at full price asked so that the agent can pick up their “found money” with as little effort as possible as soon as possible so they can go back to doing whatever it is that’s way more important to them ... could be a hair appointment (Yes! I’ve literally been rushed through a potential major viewing of a 7-figure property here with a few hundred acres to check out, buildings, residences, fencing, easements, improvements ... because the agent needed to get to her hair appointment that was an hour drive distant), or going to the post office to see if a check they were expecting had arrived.
Of course, you’ve got to be realistic about what you’re willing and able to spend to begin the project. If you’ve already qualified yourself as seeking an unrealistically low price piece of land, then you’ve taken away the incentive for an agent to spend time with you. Position yourself as a valid client is paramount ... motivated, capable, qualified.
I’ve been told so many times here by agents that my “needs” were their priority ... and clearly, these folk have all been the most self-serving group of licensed agents of any type I’ve ever encountered anywhere. I’ve had them screw up deals and not stand behind what they represented and were legally required to deliver for a contract close, and there’s never been an apology; to the extent that when I brought the matter to the attention of the managing broker, his attitude was “sue us” or “file a complaint with the RE commission, we’ve dealt with those before.” And the RE commission agent I visited with was absolutely incensed that I let go a “damn” in describing the problem with the RE agency ... which he acknowledged was their fault and responsibility to clear up, and actionable on the part of the commission with suspensions and fines. But you know what? He wasn’t going to do that because I’d used “abusive language” in his office and didn’t want to act in accordance with the state laws or require the RE agency to do so, either. What was really crazy about these situations was that it would have been very simple for the agent to do their job properly from the beginning ... but once they didn’t do it, they dug their heels in and weren’t going to be cooperative. Little things, like being sure that real title to what I’d purchased (And paid for with certified funds at closing) was filed and recorded, or easements properly signed over to allow access to my purchase property.
How crazy can this stuff get? I’ve had folk call me up to advise that they’d bought an adjacent property to mine and would be installing a new fence around a hillside portion that was on my property, to allow their livestock to get water from the creek that runs through my place. What? Sorry, pal, you don’t have the right to fence me out of my property on my land. But but but ... the RE agent who sold me the place told me that you were agreeable to me building that fence so that we’d have it between our livestock, and that you’d allow me to build it onto your property so that my livestock could have access to live water year-round. Without access to the creek on your land, I can’t run livestock on my dry land parcel. Well, boo-Hoo, pal ... if you were stupid enough to believe that agent without calling me, your prospective new neighbor, to verify his representation about the water access ... you need to call that agent and settle up with him. The funniest part of the whole episode was that the guy got belligerent about needing the access to the creek on my land and that he was dispatching a fencing crew that day to install the fence. He “needed” my “immediate answer”. I had one for him ... which involved pounding sand. To this day, the guy thinks I’m the “bad guy” in the whole transaction and still does business with the RE agent that suckered him into buying that dryland acreage for keeping his horses. My point here is that RE agents in the area are not unknown to make outrageous representations to a prospective buyer to close a deal and get that earned commission.
IMO, raw land agents have been the worst performers when you’re in the realm of small acreages for your own development. I’ve been told by a few folk that they found a “good” RE agent for a residential property, and there’s some good agents who deal in large acreages/farms/ranches ... but these are way beyond the scope of what you’re looking at doing.
Here’s my suggestion: contact a Coldwell Banker RE affiliate in Denver, CO. Seek out the agent(s) who do small acreage land deals and ... if they’re not personally licensed to do biz in WY, as some are ... get their referral to the C-B affiliate office in Cody WY. The CO agents are now going to have a vested interest in the performance of their referral and will act accordingly to monitor what goes on with their affiliate. Keep the CO folk in the loop and bring them all the “good news” as well as any glitches on the part of the WY agency. The key here is that C-B national has performance standards inter-affiliate and the folk in Cody know that they can’t get away with the same level of performance that is the norm for that marketplace. As well, if you run into that CO based agent that is also licensed in WY, they’ll be chasing that deal for you via any connection or resource that they have developed in the region.
PS: know in advance 2 important details about WY RE transactions:
1). The sales price of RE is, by law, the exclusive knowledge of the parties of the transaction and the county RE assessor’s office. “Non-disclosure”. Be very leery of anybody who throws out numbers of what real estate has sold for in the area.
2). By law, the primary fiduciary responsibility of a real estate agent is exclusively to the SELLER. Yes, “dual agency” has hit the statutes in WY, or “buyer agency” agents/contracts do exist. However, in my experience and that of many folk who I’ve visited with ... these concepts have yet to take hold in WY. I’ve seen more than a few “dual agency” deals done where it was plain that the seller got all the good end of a deal and the buyer got screwed because the agent wasn’t doing their due diligence as expected for the buyer.
Wow Sunsprit, you are scaring me...But thanks for the education!
I've been making in clear to all the agents I've spoken with (now 4) that this would be a cash deal. I've never asked for a bargain, or even asked to haggle prices with anyone. I've been pretty clear about what our budget is, which is right in line with the asking prices for all the pieces of land we've inquired about. Two of the agents are finally responding to my questions. I heard from one of them last night and another this morning.
I had no idea that all the agents would be working exclusively for the seller in WY.?. It's more customary where I live (Missouri) to have either a combination of two agents, one for buyer, and one for seller, or occasionally one that works dual. So if I read you right, buyers can't have agents working for them in WY? Seems crazy that no one is looking out for the buyers rights or best interests. Perhaps I've misunderstood? How about MT? We are also looking at a couple of properties that are just across the border in MT.
The agent this morning told me that they are "getting pounded" by people from the left coast, and NY right now with all the crap going on in the big cities. Everyone in their right mind wants out. He did say that most of those folks are looking for lots in or right near the larger towns like Cody however. Most aren't looking for 20 acres 20 miles outside of town...which is what we are looking for, +/- 10 acres or 10 miles.
My brother and I have been working on this plan for a while now (years). It seems like we may have just picked the wrong time to try and make it happen with the big cities burning, and people running for their lives...which is not our case at all. We would just like to live out our retirements in the mountains, not choking on the 90% humidity in Missouri.
Sounds like the wild, wild west of real estate up there, which I'm sorry to hear...but the knowledge you are sharing could help us to avoid a disaster.
Can't add much to what Sunsprit said (he's a great resource for info). I'll keep mine short and sweet:
1. Don't believe anything anyone tells you long distance - not property owners, not real estate agents, no-one. Even when you're here in person folks will still lie to your face - while they're smiling at you and handing over a plate of cookies.
2. You need to be here yourself to check and verify everything you are told
3. Consider renting first - even in your RV for a while until you can be here, see things, talk to people, verify everything yourself. And until you can really see for yourselves if WY in general and Cody specifically is for you. Visiting here and living here are two different animals.
4. Look at Clark if you want some quiet and isolation. 30 miles from Cody. Easier to find affordable lots in the sizes you discussed.
5. WY has a different kind of winter - it's not just the cold. It's the almost unrelenting wind. The isolation. The closed businesses. The closed roads. We're from TN. The isolation here (particularly in the winter) is nothing like what you are used to back east. Cody is like every other small town in the United States come winter. The park is closed, half the businesses in town are closed, the other half work on abbreviated hours.
6. Tread cautiously. Every high tax, Covid infested, crime ridden big city refugee is looking at WY right now, when just last year and the year before they were all making fun of local yokels living in sage-brush-covered-fly-over-country. Real estate prices are going up. People from all over the country are snapping up every available rental sight unseen. Not the wild west yet, but it's getting there fast. I say again - tread cautiously.
7. One last thing - before you uproot the entire family I suggest you come back out alone (or with one other family member) to check it all out for yourself in person. With critical eyes and a critical heart. Don't lose your shirt over a "Wyoming Dream". Good luck to you.
Last edited by juneaubound; 09-23-2020 at 03:04 PM..
Thanks Juneau! I've been reading your posts in some of the other WY threads here. Really appreciate your guidance, and first-hand observations from also being a transplant. Parts of TN are beautiful too, and almost as humid as Missouri.
We've had people smile and lie to us before during the process of a home purchase...that time over a beer.
Undisclosed structural problems that time. Missouri is actually pretty solid about holding people to those kinds of non-disclosed things, and making the seller make-good on them. Not sure about WY and MT.
We probably should have taken this plunge a year ago, before the cities were all exploding and burning. We've been working on the plan for years, but may have missed our window.
Funny thing is, we're only trying to escape the humidity, and retire in a beautiful place. Not that Missouri isn't a pretty place. We live near the foothills of the Ozarks, and it's very nice. Crime and covid are both very low here, and the people are nice. It's also very conservative here (Rush Limbaugh's home town) which fits us well, but it's not nearly as breathtaking as the mountain states. I also have allergy related lung problems where are really amplified in the persistent, very high humidity here. CO is out for us because of the radical left turn the state has made during the past few decades. Most folks call Denver "LA East" now, and for good reason. So, WY and MT are next up the mountain chains. Eventually they may get messed-up too, but I probably won't live to see it.
We did get some response from another realtor today. He had a really nice piece of land that was within our budget. I was ready to make the offer...then I saw the covenants. WOW! Buying the land is one thing, but being able to build on it is another. These would have made the later almost impossible for us. Sorry, a $1M home is not within our budget. I'm checking on things like those really carefully now.
"I had no idea that all the agents would be working exclusively for the seller in WY.?. It's more customary where I live (Missouri) to have either a combination of two agents, one for buyer, and one for seller, or occasionally one that works dual. So if I read you right, buyers can't have agents working for them in WY? Seems crazy that no one is looking out for the buyers rights or best interests. Perhaps I've misunderstood?"
You have not misunderstood.
For Wyoming real estate transactions, forget everything you know and trust about the performance of real estate agents and agencies from other states.
Wyoming statutes are extremely clear: The sole fiduciary responsibility of a real estate agent is to the seller.
So even when Wyoming added "dual agency" and "buyer agency" provisions to the RE law, those agents still have a major conflict of interest. IOW, your "agent" ... by long standing practice and law since the licensing of agents became required ... has a difficultly in disclosing to you what he may know about defects/problems/needed repairs & upgrades/etc or anything that may be detrimental to the seller's interest in the transaction.
For example, the RE agent may know that the seller is highly motivated, desperate to sell due to (insert reason here), and is willing to take XX% less than the asked price just to get things wrapped up by (insert date here). By LAW ... the agent cannot mention this to you. All he can do is tell you what the asked price is and urge you ... implore you ... to "make an offer". And BY LAW ... he cannot suggest a lower number, which would be acting against the seller's interest. Again, all he can do is suggest you make an offer which he is required BY LAW to present to the seller.
And that last point is a stickler for me. I've had more than a few properties in Wyoming that have had my interest. But when I did my due diligence about the property, I found many defects which radically reduced the "real world" price. Indeed, on several properties I had a professional appraisal done (at 4-figure cost!) to back up my perception of the real value/price of what I'd offer on the property. On one property, my offer was less than half of the "fishing expedition" asked price ... the agent gave me the "shocked" song and dance, and "refused to present the insulting offer to the seller". As it happened, the property was unsold for another year ... and I'd visited with the prospective neighbors to get the story on the property and the seller. Turned out they were in a desperate situation, facing foreclosure and defaults on several farm operating loans, repossession of farm equipment and personal vehicles, etc.; the failure of the farm was due to a drought period in the early 2000's and they had junior water rights which delivered no water for years, and when they finally changed over to dryland crops, the finances were "too far gone" ... a sad story, do tell. The property ultimately was sold at auction for 30% of the asked price, which essentially paid off all the notes and the folks walked away with nothing after years of making payments on the place and spending $hundred thousands on improvements. Had they been presented with my offer ... which the agent unlawfully refused to show them ... they'd have walked away a year earlier with a decent amount of cash in hand to get on with their lives.
On another farm/ranch property I'd looked at, it again justified a lot less money than was asked. I subsequently made an offer on it. It was only then that the RE agent advised me that the offer would have to go to the "bank committee" for review and acceptance because the "asked price" was already less than they wanted to get out of the property, then in receivership. Are you getting the concept yet of how unscrupulous the RE agents are in this state? The first thing that that agent should have reasonably told me was that the property was in receivership AND that the asked price was less than the bank wanted for it ... having already turned down some offers during the original listing period that were higher than the current asked price. What was the problem with the property? It was marketed as having a pivot irrigated 600 acre field (whoa ... that's a lot of pivot towers and a big pumping system to maintain). What the agent couldn't tell me was that the irrigation well had "run dry" for years due to a dropping water table (draw-down for fracking water by the neighbors) and the sellers hadn't been able to irrigate much more than a portion of the "600 acre field" for awhile. So the potential for crops was very limited. As well, the agent could not advise me that the house "domestic" well had dropped off to a .5 GPM production ... and that the 2,000 gallon cistern by the house had failed with a number of big cracks in the concrete structure. Effectively, the house was uninhabitable until the domestic well was redrilled, the cistern replaced, and the farming operations were at a halt until that irrigation well could be redrilled/relocated on the property. Folks, these are gigantic RED FLAGS to a real estate deal which the RE agency and agent KNEW (along with the seller) were present ... and yet, by Wyoming LAW ... did not disclose to me because this information was detrimental to the seller's interest. It remained upon my shoulders to do my own due diligence to discover what I might be buying. Nevertheless, I pursed this property and made an offer consistent with what was there, which was rejected by the seller without a counter-offer proposal. Again, this property sat vacant, unsold for years ... until it finally went into default and the repo file at the bank got stale. By federal law, the bank had to dispose of the property so they put it up for auction ... and again, it sold for a fraction of what I'd offered years previously. It's now a dryland hard winter wheat farm, and the owners do not live on the property because they've abandoned the house.
Juneaubound reiterates some points I've repeatedly made for over a decade on this forum. Visit Wyoming with a keen eye as to what presents, especially during winter months, in the places you've an interest. But look closely as a resident, not as a tourist. The cold, wind, and isolation ... along with limited services, limited entertainment, limited recreation, limited medical facilities, limited restaurants, limited shopping ... and long, potentially difficult transportation and access ... all add up to an entirely different experience than other cold weather winter climes.
For example, I've had neighbors who grew up in Wisconsin ... not exactly known for "mild" winters. They lived "out in the sticks" from various towns. Come wintertime, the road conditions were cause for caution but the roads were open, maintained, and accessible for their trips to town, entertainment, pizza runs, etc. Access to the local lakes for ice fishing was a few minutes by snowmobile, and the ice hut was a comfortable place to dunk a line, watch "the game", and maybe hook a fish or two for recreation and dinner. You'll not find comparable here in Wyoming. Three of such neighbors have "moved back" to Wisconsin in the last couple of years because they found Wyoming winters to be so much harsher and unlivable. At the most, they made it two winters here ... I recall one family couldn't stand it here and moved "back home" in January because it was easier there to survive the winter in relative comfort. Heck, they didn't even make it to the coldest part of our winter. Fortunately, they'd not yet sold their Wisconsin house, and they were able to get their renters out on their return.
Similarly, I see folks from the mid-atlantic states with winter climes who cannot fathom the things they have to give up for a Wyoming winter. Again, they endure snow and slick roads and inconvenience to access entertainment, jobs, medical, hospitality, recreation, shopping, and so forth ... but they don't understand that here in Wyoming, a lot of this may become not accessible or available at all during the winter months ... and winter at altitude lasts a lot longer than it does at sea level elevations. It's not uncommon for many aspects of "winter" to present here in Wyoming for 5-6 months of the year, a big difference compared to a "depth of winter lasting 3 months".
Let me put this Wyoming living situation from a "new england" perspective. I've been a long-time sailor/wooden boat builder, and know that absent a well-insulated and heated shop, I can't do much woodworking, gluing/epoxy work, or finishing/painting here in Wyoming. Yet I read (long time Wooden Boat subscriber since issue #2) time and time again about how a boat builder in NH or VT, or ME built a simple tube/plastic film structure to cover a workshop area and built a wooden boat from scratch to completion in such a flimsy protected area heated with nothing more than a small woodstove fed with off-cuts and wood scraps. Comfy and warm enough to work in and warm enough to allow epoxies, urethanes, fiberglass coverings, and coatings and primers and paints to properly cure! Outside of the fact that few such structures might survive the wind gusts of a typical Wyoming winter, the UV here destroys the plastic films in short order ... absent a monster heater source in the structure, you're not going to reliably cure epoxies or paints here ... let alone be comfortable to do the work inside such a structure. At best, these 'greenhouse" structures are suitable as hothouses to extend a limited vegetable garden growing season here in Wyoming, although heating them is impracticable to overwinter the plants.
Years ago we had offers on the Ranch in Star Valley. We started looking at ranch to 1031 into if a sale happened . Some relators were great listen to our story found ranch that work for us. Others relators treated us like tire kickers and wouldn't even send us a flyer. When we did sell we used our accountant and lawyer on our sale , we didn't have much time to complete a 1031 , One relator that shown us ranches before show us a about 3 and another group was looking of breaking ranches up to fit what we needed. We found the ranch we on now we did contact a buyer relator to represent us and also because we need a bit more land or restate to cover the 1031. He contacted everybody around the ranch and actually got us an attaching ranch. That deal went thru quickly. So on our buying end we did use a relator our accountant, and lawyer along with a 1031 lawyer that had to handle 2 ranch bought and two 1031 construction projects. We felt the selling agent knew we were more on the legitimate side when we had a buyer agent with us, they knew each other and we received quick answers from the selling agent .
I see where you coming from I felt we were legitimate buyer yet a lot of restate office just treated us like tire kickers at a car lot....
Thanks Juneau! I've been reading your posts in some of the other WY threads here. Really appreciate your guidance, and first-hand observations from also being a transplant. Parts of TN are beautiful too, and almost as humid as Missouri.
We've had people smile and lie to us before during the process of a home purchase...that time over a beer.
Undisclosed structural problems that time. Missouri is actually pretty solid about holding people to those kinds of non-disclosed things, and making the seller make-good on them. Not sure about WY and MT.
We probably should have taken this plunge a year ago, before the cities were all exploding and burning. We've been working on the plan for years, but may have missed our window.
Funny thing is, we're only trying to escape the humidity, and retire in a beautiful place. Not that Missouri isn't a pretty place. We live near the foothills of the Ozarks, and it's very nice. Crime and covid are both very low here, and the people are nice. It's also very conservative here (Rush Limbaugh's home town) which fits us well, but it's not nearly as breathtaking as the mountain states. I also have allergy related lung problems where are really amplified in the persistent, very high humidity here. CO is out for us because of the radical left turn the state has made during the past few decades. Most folks call Denver "LA East" now, and for good reason. So, WY and MT are next up the mountain chains. Eventually they may get messed-up too, but I probably won't live to see it.
We did get some response from another realtor today. He had a really nice piece of land that was within our budget. I was ready to make the offer...then I saw the covenants. WOW! Buying the land is one thing, but being able to build on it is another. These would have made the later almost impossible for us. Sorry, a $1M home is not within our budget. I'm checking on things like those really carefully now.
Thanks again,
Dave O.
Re: the bolded. We ran into the same thing - seemingly affordable land and convenants completely out of our reach. I won't beat you over the head with this but making an offer on a piece of land sight unseen would be.........unfortunate. Look up pictures of land in Clark eg. Some of those pictures are color enhanced. Some of that land is full of rock. Some of that land is bone dry. And long distance they won't tell you about the rattlesnakes, the grizzly bears, the wind so strong that it can buckle the asphalt. They also won't tell you that the drive to Cody in summer is a beautiful 30 minute drive, but can be a white-knuckle two hour experience in winter conditions. Would you like me to tell you the story about the retired Maryland law enforcement officer who had his jaw ripped off by a bear on his own property out in Clark?
I'm not trying to scare you and I know a good number of folks who live out there and who LOVE it. But it's not for everyone. It's a completely different world than what you are used to. And what about your wives and kids? Would they all like that kind of isolation?
Meeteetse is another possibility - also 30 minutes from Cody and awesomely beautiful. I "think" land may be more expensive out that way but check for sure if interested. Nice little town but no grocery store, no hospital or medical clinic, one little gas station/post office/couple of burger-bars. That's about it. But if you love to hunt, fish, camp it's a great place to live. The highway between Cody and Meeteese usually closes for a short while a couple of times each winter because of blowing snow. Extremely isolated drive between both towns.
There's also land between Cody and Powell. Less isolated. More expensive. Not sure on availability of lots the size you're looking for, and covenants will likely eat your lunch.
Sounds dangerous to buy land, or any other kind of real estate in WY.
I'm really surprised that there's no disclosure provision/laws. If a buyer asks a specific question, and the seller lies in response to it, doesn't disclose the problem, and that costs the buyer $, it seems crazy that there's no recourse for the buyer....other than just to take them to civil court. That happens over here to, but rarely because a seller that doesn't disclose almost always loses...and the realtor may lose their license too. In our case, we complained, and get a $5k reimbursement. They did not wish to go to court.
On the weather / winter side, we tend to mostly hibernate in the winter anyway. As long as the power is on (or I can run the generator) and the propane truck can fill me up (or I have wood for the stove), I'm generally OK. We've actually been looking over by Powell because there seems to be less snow over there...really not that much according to City Data. Ya, the wind could be annoying. Because of the tips we've gotten here, we'll make darn sure the house seals-up really really well.
Road access is something we will put more emphasis on. We were planning to get a tractor for plowing the road anyway, but the closer we are to hard pavement the better I'd guess. I get it. Sometimes even the paved roads get closed for a while after a bad storm. I've been stranded in a hotel in Hays KS for most of a week before with I-70 closed. Snow drifts can make for some hard work to clear. I'll check with the county on specific roads near the sites, and ask if those roads get cleared as much as possible during winter weather. Perhaps we need to add a snowmobile to the list of expenses. Might be fun too!
From what you are describing, it sounds like some of the recent "big city runaways" might be putting their properties up for sale in a year or so. Perhaps we should wait for that.
Dave O.
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