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Yes, and they should be teaching their students to be responsible for their work by giving appropriate grades to the types of work produced, not tolerating students to zone out of the classroom by sitting and looking at their phones instead of listening to the teacher's lecture and doing the required assignments. Parents should also be involved with this. Schools should be able to stand up to parents and regulate phone use. But hey, this is old news. Except for the phones, that is.
Things continue to degenerate, and I have seen this already in my short four year career. How low can we go until schools become baby sitting services that mindlessly hand "graduating" seniors their diploma and then release them to like-minded colleges who are after student money, or into the working world where employers will be expecting the "graduates" to work, not sit on their phones on company time and to be able to read and write, contributing to the bottom line?
I would agree the initial screen criteria isn't working very well. Biggest change in training over the years is now there is a lot more hand holding and concern for feelings. Old school engineers I trained under didn't mind telling you that you did it wrong. Typically went like this. Your first report they showed you how to do it. Second report they told you what you did wrong, with emphasis. Third report they handed it back and told you to do it right, with some colorful metaphors. Now days you can't just tell them they did it wrong because that's criticism and it might hurt their feelings. So you have put it as a suggestion.
I would agree part of the problem is unreasonable expectations, in that the expectations are too low when starting out. It's so much harder to pull them up than it is to ease off. Seriously, we're in a field of engineering where sloppiness can have serious consequences in terms of dollars and lives. When something goes wrong, these reports become legal records of who did what, when, where, how, and why so they can reconstruct the accident.
Spot on. That is exactly what I'm seeing. They've gotten used to doing sloppy work and have never been called on it before, so when they get called on it now, they can't handle the criticism.
Not to mention, but those handing out the criticism are often doing it with a very heavy hand, and it’s coming off less as a “let’s work on this together because we are a team” & “More, oh dear lord, you’re an idiot, how did I get saddled with you?”
Which version of criticism do you think will actually get better results?
And often, after being given heavy-handed criticism for a long time, the employee’s perception is when you don’t give them heavy-handed criticism, you’re a pushover and they won’t do it anyway. As my sister said the other day we’re all just doomed.
I don't know whether this belongs under Work or Education forum since it's related to both. Part of my job is to review work product for quality. No one expects a first draft to be perfect, but I've noticed a marked drop in quality not only of first draft, but final product. I'm not talking about typos, spelling, or grammar, but in basic quality of the work itself. Incomplete, sections left out, assumptions in place of detailed analysis.
Sooo... did you give these employees their participation trophies?
Being in the Education field, I see what kind of work students do in the several high schools and middle schools that I sub at. First of all, the work is far, far easier than what I and my peers had to do when we were at that level. Second, the students are fine with doing substandard work since they will get passed anyway (otherwise the teacher gets to visit the principal and must explain why their students aren't learning if they dare to grade honestly). So the students are demotivated and can turn in (or not turn in) any kind of work. The large amount of students who even forget to put their names on their papers is disheartening.
I assume that once they get into the workforce, they will be used to doing sloppy, or very little work since they believe that they should not be accountable for it. They got decent grades in school for doing that kind of work so they should be getting a nice paycheck without really doing anything for it. That is the precedent that is being set.
In addition to this, with smartphones in the hands of virtually every student, the temptation to be constantly on them is incredibly fierce. Certainly in school and in the classroom. It is difficult or impossible to keep those devices out of the students' hands during class time. I have observed regular teachers (and me) fight losing battles over this. A few years back there was an attempt made to outlaw smartphones, tablets, and other distracting devices from being used in school, but the parents objected. So these devices are back.
It is frightening to look ahead and see what kind of workforce we will have in just a few years as these students get (not earn) their high school diplomas and college degrees. The new substandard, low quality, whiny workforce will crash heads with the new working world where increasingly hostile employers expect to hire purple squirrels, top performers, and other achievers, and try to do more with less, paying less to get better talent. These ends are diametrically opposed to each other and a reckoning is going to take place. I don't dare to even try to predict what it is going to be.
Not to mention, but those handing out the criticism are often doing it with a very heavy hand, and it’s coming off less as a “let’s work on this together because we are a team” & “More, oh dear lord, you’re an idiot, how did I get saddled with you?”
Which version of criticism do you think will actually get better results?
You have an odd view of what a teamwork is in the workplace. Compare it to, say, a symphony. The violinist doesn't try to help the flautist: each is expected to do their job perfectly. Ditto with all the other instruments. When each individual does their job perfectly, the result is beautiful music.
Or, if you prefer, consider a football team: the left tackle doesn't try to help the wide receiver do his job, nor does the quarterback. Teamwork is the left tackle being the best left tackle possible, trusting his team mate wide receiver to be the best possible wide receiver, etc. When everyone does their each individual job correctly, you get a victory.
As always the pay determines quality attracted. Software engineer is going to be more motivated these days than a Hospitality Manager given the salary of the former can be 3x-4x of the latter.
Why would you think that I pay younger people more than older people in one industry, and the complete opposite in another? A software engineer may be more motivated by pay, but you would expect that to be fairly constant across age.
Not to mention, but those handing out the criticism are often doing it with a very heavy hand, and it’s coming off less as a “let’s work on this together because we are a team” & “More, oh dear lord, you’re an idiot, how did I get saddled with you?”
Which version of criticism do you think will actually get better results?
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In the old days, yes, it would have been "get your act together" whereas now days we are doing more of the "rah rah, kumbayah" approach. It isn't working, much like in school and college where kids are assigned to work together on a project. One or two kids carry the whole group while the others slide. That really isn't teamwork
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations
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Or, if you prefer, consider a football team: the left tackle doesn't try to help the wide receiver do his job, nor does the quarterback. Teamwork is the left tackle being the best left tackle possible, trusting his team mate wide receiver to be the best possible wide receiver, etc. When everyone does their each individual job correctly, you get a victory.
This. And a good team; a championship team; the coach will have high expectations and be tough on the players. Funny thing is, those championship players come away loving that coach because he is tough.
In the old days, yes, it would have been "get your act together" whereas now days we are doing more of the "rah rah, kumbayah" approach. It isn't working, much like in school and college where kids are assigned to work together on a project. One or two kids carry the whole group while the others slide. That really isn't teamwork
This. And a good team; a championship team; the coach will have high expectations and be tough on the players. Funny thing is, those championship players come away loving that coach because he is tough.
What are your expectations like? I work for the feds too and our expectations on everyone have changed over the past 3-4 years and they seem surprised that the quality of work has gone down. They also tried to “improve” training for the new folks, but instead of giving them a year to get up to speed, they now have 6 months and are perplexed why the work is poor and superiors are complaining.
When the quality of the workforce goes down, then the expectations have to go down too. It is an art and a science to keep adjusting downward in a precise and effective manner.
Yes, and they should be teaching their students to be responsible for their work by giving appropriate grades to the types of work produced, not tolerating students to zone out of the classroom by sitting and looking at their phones instead of listening to the teacher's lecture and doing the required assignments. Parents should also be involved with this. Schools should be able to stand up to parents and regulate phone use. But hey, this is old news. Except for the phones, that is.
Things continue to degenerate, and I have seen this already in my short four year career. How low can we go until schools become baby sitting services that mindlessly hand "graduating" seniors their diploma and then release them to like-minded colleges who are after student money, or into the working world where employers will be expecting the "graduates" to work, not sit on their phones on company time and to be able to read and write, contributing to the bottom line?
Where can I find one of these schools you are referring to? I'd like to go back and get a second Bachelor's or Master's degree, pain free, just like you describe.
I've taken university courses regularly since I graduated decades ago and they are much difficult than when I was an undergrad.
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Solly says — Be nice!
