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Do you mean, andywire, that they would rather hire a newbie or unskilled person for cheap than pay what it's worth for an experienced machinist?
So that a highly experienced and "worth it" machinist would go unemployed?
Are you at that level now where they are discriminating against you because you're experienced and good?
I'm not a machinist, though we employ a lot of them. In my field of engineering it takes 3-5 years to really get good at it. Yet, and no exaggeration, our senior management have stood up and directly told a room full of us that "they don't believe it takes years and they can train anyone within two weeks to do the job." The thing is, they weren't trying to issue a veiled threat or anything. I've spent enough time talking with them that they literally believe what they said. They are frighteningly clueless about the level of knowledge and skill it takes to do this job.
I'm not a machinist, though we employ a lot of them. In my field of engineering it takes 3-5 years to really get good at it. Yet, and no exaggeration, our senior management have stood up and directly told a room full of us that "they don't believe it takes years and they can train anyone within two weeks to do the job." The thing is, they weren't trying to issue a veiled threat or anything. I've spent enough time talking with them that they literally believe what they said. They are frighteningly clueless about the level of knowledge and skill it takes to do this job.
They can train machine operators, including CNC operators in weeks. Smart folks can learn the machinist trade quickly, maybe in a couple years, but they don't work cheap when the economy is good. And the economy is good. There are plenty of other, better opportunities for smart people besides the machinist trade for them to bother.
There are very few "niche" opportunities.
In fact, that is why they are called niche.
Our whole economy is turning into 'niche' businesses.
The very word makes me nauseous.
I want mainstream. Every American who is physically able working. Let China and India handle the niche crap.
We're all style and no substance, and it all has to collapse before much longer.
China is specifically setup to "employ" the MOST PEOPLE possible...and not efficeintly. I learned that once from an Industrial Engineer who's firm was flown in from USA to Hong Kong on a repeated basis to setup shops. The chinese DON'T want the most efficient industrial plant...they want and NEED a plant that will employ the most people possible. THE LAST THING China needs is Millions of unemployed chinese looking around to REVOLT.
~If the people have a roof over their heads and food on the table, they will not revolt (* Mao)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
So whose been building all those planes, trains and automobiles? Old inventions I know... Perhaps they have outlived their usefulness as well?
To be fair, there are about twice as many machinists employed (on the books) as electricians in America. And that's even after the wholesale gutting of our infrastructure. How can the job be any less relevant? Or should the concept of electricity be put to rest as well due to it's age??? Fact is, most companies are at least willing to acknowledge that the limited supply of skilled workers is a major obstacle to growth. It's a sign of America's gross lack of foresight and ability to compete on the global scale.
Its always out of balance...that's where opportunity lyes. This country and all others has A HISTORY of abusing labor----always had, always will. Only those who can gain "leverage" with a corp will ever get the best of them.
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Originally Posted by bobtn
OP"It's a sign of America's gross lack of foresight and ability to compete on the global scale."
except we're doing exceedingly well. There will always be folks in trades, and the quantity will most likely fall simply because all occupations can make do with less..so most occupations that exist will see fewer jobs all the time ..that is progress, but new industries arise all the time, and with our number 1 GDP economy, we'll keep adapting to the changes needed, at a macro level.
OUR GDP is at the top ONLY DUE to Finance and Banking----that's it. IF the financing terms weren't available to the average consumer, America would fall flat on its face. (there's a few other reason's but that's for another thread).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Cravings
I agree. I'm a union electrician and looking to get out of the trade in the next decade by getting a degree and going from there.
It just doesn't pay to labor these days.
Companies want highly skilled people that are willing to work for low wages. They aren't interested in training, or apprenticing. Or if they are, they are likely to put a glass ceiling over you, so no matter how good you get at your job, or how many responsibilities you take on, you'll still make that low wage when you came in.
If you think people have a bad work ethic these days, I think the same can be said of businesses.
Business is being forced to compete with cheap over-seas labor...this gov. is not protecting its Citizens nor its small-med.sized businesses. Germany protects its business....and that's why the average German makes about $30/hr for menial labor. And it also explains why they also get drunk and happy every Friday and Saturday night (not to mention the 1mth off every year).
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Originally Posted by vision33r
Our government has propped up the economy in order for consumers to keep spending money. China can't over take us because their economy depends on exports. Which is why China keep forcing themselves to buy out debts so their currency can stay weak on purpose.
If the US does not create enough jobs and consumers stop spending, it causes a global recession.
The 1% are striving to make this country (and every other) just as miserable as the poor ppl of China. China's suicide rate is one of the highest (if not the highest) in the world. The country is polluted, the government is communist, the people literally have been robbed of their souls. They have a blank expressions on their faces and no life.....SAD.
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Originally Posted by mo8414
The shortage of skilled machinists is still a real problem. I work in fixture build and assembly line build shops as a machinist so its all one off parts. No production which means your running a machine thats likeky 30 + years old that takes skill. The problem is they still want to pay you what they were paying 25 years ago and the price of admission into this trade outweighs the benifits.
Hey kid, you want to make $20/hr go buy $3000 + in tools and $1000 on a box to hold them. hope someone will teach you the right way and do all the crappy jobs your first 5-7 years. Thats not very appealing to this generation when they can make 3 times as much on a computer programing comfortably in air conditioning. I don't blame kids today for not wanting to break their backs in a shop when their are much better opportunities out there that don't mind their employees making livable wage.
They will continue to have a problem unless they are able to price their good higher. If not, they will go under...that's the way it works. Probably not charging enough for their products. SAD
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Originally Posted by JTE1969
Hey andywire - my "trade" has already, I suspect, hit dirt... Mechanical Engineering. Oh, the Barnes & Noble I'm in is closing soon... Gotta go.
But at one job that I interviewed at, the guy interviewing me said, "The machinists here make more than the Mechanical Engineers..." - That pissed me off!
And at Jewel's last night there was a 30 year experienced Mechanical Engineer there working there PT for the benefits...
I can't believe that ME has suffered the way it has. What a disgrace to this country and education system. My buddy got a degree in Electrical Engineering, and had to go back and get one in Computer Network Engineering. He must have put in 10yrs in college work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490
What about defense industry seems to be immune to China outsource.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTE1969
When I was studying ME back in college around 1990, I had a premonition not to be an ME because China will rise up as a manufacturer and possibly dominate the manufacturing industry. China has now probably achieved this, as many Products worldwide are made in China.
Even the US Defense Industry has been secretly crippled by China, covertly and slyly. Our Politicians gave free trade so much creed and never paid too much attention to protecting America. I read there is some critical resource needed to make something resulting in military hardware, and China undersold in price their minerals of this to put out of business the competing American mineral company.
I even suspect that Lenovo, - a Chinese company, - secretly puts something into their Lenovo Business laptops to spy on every American Businessman. Or maybe that's secretly done to every brand of PCs made in China, too.
I dont' get these comments. When has China ever been involved in the Military Industrial Complex?
Wouldn't you ever think that the Chinese are sly smart people too? THE TSA stopped a Chinese worker carrying a USB stick full of stolen technology "blueprints" from Motorola...
It's smarter to engage in a secret stealth war of espionage and economic subterfuge to take over your enemy, than to lay them waste with a nuclear bomb. Why? Aren't many rich Chinese moving here to America and buying up our real Estate and businesses?
- With that, our Chinese landlords will make us slaves to rent. They will also make us slaves to work too, if they own our businesses... - But American CEOs already do that to the common man.
Things have changed in the Machinist world. It is not the same as it always was.
My boyhood best friend, and I married sisters. He was a top level machinist that moved on up to a top tool and die maker. He worked for a major corporation in their medical device division. He made the first working models of new equipment. He was their top man in that field. He was let go, and given a great severance package to retire early. They had developed the machining machines to the point, that the engineer now would give the machine the specifications to be able to make the part. The engineer would load the raw material into the machine, and walk away while the machine made the part to the exact specifications and tolerances the engineer had specified. The engineers liked it, because they had perfect parts made to specifications and closer tolerances than most of the tool and die makers produced on first attempt. They got the part much quicker. The had the parts and put them into the first working model as they needed them. There was no need for tool and die makers to make that first model of new equipment. They brought in sufficient machines to keep the engineering department up to speed, and laid off all human machine operators.
That was about 25 years ago, and everyone knows in the past 25 years those machines are far improved over what they were when he was forced into retirement. Today they can 3D print those parts even easier to do. I have a grandson in law, that is doing great working for one of the biggest contract 3D printing firms. They can print parts in plastic and in metal, and with a minimum of smoothing and polishing they have the part. One thing they print where he works, is rotors for auto super chargers for luxury cars. Parts that have to be made with precision, can be made easily by 3D printers no matter how intricate they are.
As manufacturing increases in the U.S. the need for workers declines rapidly.
Note how few humans are working there, as nearly everything is automated.
Elon Musk the founder in a speech a few days ago, said they have now developed the robotic process to the point that the cars they build in the very near future, they will only need IT people and mechanics to keep the computers and machinery working. The manufacturing will not require even one employ to build the cars.
It is not that they are not going to need engineers to janitors and every job in between, as machines and robots take over the jobs they used to do.
Things have changed in the Machinist world. It is not the same as it always was.
My boyhood best friend, and I married sisters. He was a top level machinist that moved on up to a top tool and die maker. He worked for a major corporation in their medical device division. He made the first working models of new equipment. He was their top man in that field. He was let go, and given a great severance package to retire early. They had developed the machining machines to the point, that the engineer now would give the machine the specifications to be able to make the part. The engineer would load the raw material into the machine, and walk away while the machine made the part to the exact specifications and tolerances the engineer had specified. The engineers liked it, because they had perfect parts made to specifications and closer tolerances than most of the tool and die makers produced on first attempt. They got the part much quicker. The had the parts and put them into the first working model as they needed them. There was no need for tool and die makers to make that first model of new equipment. They brought in sufficient machines to keep the engineering department up to speed, and laid off all human machine operators.
That was about 25 years ago, and everyone knows in the past 25 years those machines are far improved over what they were when he was forced into retirement. Today they can 3D print those parts even easier to do. I have a grandson in law, that is doing great working for one of the biggest contract 3D printing firms. They can print parts in plastic and in metal, and with a minimum of smoothing and polishing they have the part. One thing they print where he works, is rotors for auto super chargers for luxury cars. Parts that have to be made with precision, can be made easily by 3D printers no matter how intricate they are.
As manufacturing increases in the U.S. the need for workers declines rapidly.
Note how few humans are working there, as nearly everything is automated.
Elon Musk the founder in a speech a few days ago, said they have now developed the robotic process to the point that the cars they build in the very near future, they will only need IT people and mechanics to keep the computers and machinery working. The manufacturing will not require even one employ to build the cars.
It is not that they are not going to need engineers to janitors and every job in between, as machines and robots take over the jobs they used to do.
Production work is low paying, boring and monotonous. Nobody wants to do that kind of work, even if it did pay well.
We need to automate as much as possible with the coming retirement of boomers. It's not as much about money as it is scarcity of willing and qualified labor.
Production work is low paying, boring and monotonous. Nobody wants to do that kind of work, even if it did pay well.
We need to automate as much as possible with the coming retirement of boomers. It's not as much about money as it is scarcity of willing and qualified labor.
Yup, for someone who is unskilled it's a lot easier just to work at Walmart in air conditioned comfort while collecting food stamps, medicaid, etc.
Yup, for someone who is unskilled it's a lot easier just to work at Walmart in air conditioned comfort while collecting food stamps, medicaid, etc.
I have offered jobs to people who work near MW jobs and collect government handouts. Even to unemployed people getting handouts. They don't want those jobs because they are not stable, and they are hard work. It's not worth risking those freebees for a job that can be eliminated with very little effort. It can take a long time to get back on the dole I guess.
The attitude of many young people is even worse. They look down on those jobs and won't touch them. They call that kind of work "wasting your life". While they may be right, many of the young people saying this don't have any skillset or background that can earn them a good living. They are financially worse off than the drug addicts and convicts that companies may hire to fill the void. I think they expect someone to hand them a career, which is just not the way it works.
We don't need to automate too much. The Chinese know very well that if they automated everything, then there wouldn't be much employment for everyone in their country. Hence they avoid automation which is truly economically smarter in the BIG economic picture of things. There is a point where less productivity is a good thing, as it will employ more people. There is a peak productivity point where more productivity will be destructive to the economy, but stupid AMERICAN ECONOMIST don't know or think like this.
We don't need to automate too much. The Chinese know very well that if they automated everything, then there wouldn't be much employment for everyone in their country. Hence they avoid automation which is truly economically smarter in the BIG economic picture of things. There is a point where less productivity is a good thing, as it will employ more people. There is a peak productivity point where more productivity will be destructive to the economy, but stupid AMERICAN ECONOMIST don't know or think like this.
The corps in China automate less as Chinese labor cost are far lower, and make automating less cost effective.
We need lower taxes and regulatory costs on employers tied to payroll in order to insure we do not make our automation continuously a better option than our labor alternatives.
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