One of the next things they will be trying to do away with (job offers, collecting)
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Do you seriously think a janitor adds more than $20/hr of value to a company?
If you work full time for a living you have value as a human being, period. Why do you think the minimum wage was enacted in the first place? To give people the decency of being able to support themselves. The problem with the minimum wage is it hasn't kept place with real inflation.
Should we go back to no labor laws, and allow children to work, as then did in the coal mines early on in the 20th century? How about we let corporation have so much power that they hire mercenaries to kill their employees who are on strike?
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Pinkerton Security guards opened fire on striking Carnegie mill steelworkers in Homestead, Pennsylvania, on July 6, 1892.
People are not 'objects'. They are not 'human resources'. To add to what rambler says, yes, in China they live in corporate dormitories, 6-9 people to a room on triple bunk beds. There is NO WAY we can be 'competitive' with the slave labor police state that China has become. We NEED to have a VAT imposed on WHERE the value is added. If the value is added overseas, then it is taxed. We could also have tariffs. WE BUILT THE COUNTRY WITH TARIFFS.
The media has turned protectionism into a pejorative, but it's what built the country. If you have a 'secret sauce' so to speak, you just don't let that recipe out to the rest of the world. That is what America is doing. All the American technology goes to China, to then be executed on by slaves working in sweat shops. All of the future innovation will then eventually take place in China because they are the ones actively involved in the productivity. Since they are actively involved in the various processes, they will be the ones to improve and innovative on said processes.
It is NOT 'free market'. China has an absolute advantage, not a comparative advantage. The Swiss make the best watches, the Germans make the best automobiles, what economic advantage does china provide besides slaves? Anyone who supports that we even attempt to compete with China is complicit in allowing America to be enslaved. Your children and your children's children will be slaves. It's time to stop being so naive about the state and history of the world.
Do you seriously think a janitor adds more than $20/hr of value to a company?
It's not just the value he adds to the company. It's the money he does not have to TAKE from the system in the way of food stamps, heating assistance, etc. in order to survive. It's also that he adds money bacl to the economy because he now has an income that is sufficient enough to possibly purchase the necessities such as a home, a vehicle, medical care, and enough discretionery income left over for other commodities. Maybe he can even save enough to send his kids to college instead of depending on Pell grants, or student loans. Perhaps he brings home enough that his wife can stay home and care for her children and will not need government subsidized child care. Maybe he will feel good enough about the fact that his hard work is affording him a decent life, and so he continues to work hard and eventually move up from that janitorial position, allowing another person who wants to work hard to take his place.
I heard an economist say that due to the cost of living in these times, and the increasing cost of medical care, energy and food, the minimum wage should realistically be about $13.00 - $14.00 per hour. The MINIMUM wage.
Regardless of what "job creator" brain washing we've been led to believe, real economic stimulus needs to start at the bottom with an increase in the pay to average working Americans, who are the the majority of citizens.
People balk at $20 an hour, but where's the outrage at the CEO who makes thousands of dollars the hour he does nothing but sits on the pot in his ivory tower office?
Sephiro499: Exactly. It is amazing how many extremists think that the solution is to cut all social safety nets and just let corporations do whatever they want, despite the proof that this is a terrible idea - the Housing Bubble is an example of what happens in unregulately capitalism. The social safety nets are in the process of falling apart as UE benefits expire and hundreds of thousands of people are being forced out of the labor pool each month because they have zero chance of finding a job. The economy is stalling and the manipulated U3 number is rising, and yet these single-minded extremists can't see the facts and want to continue further down this path to ruin. And when asked how we fix this problem, their only solution is to "be more competitive" with the 3rd world.
The ONLY way to do that is to bring slavery to America. That is the only way we can compete with a nation full of effectively slave labor, zero safety nets, zero environmental regulations, and so on. Of course, the extremists dance around the issue when asked if they want slavery in America - I think most of them would be fine with it provided it only applied to "those dirty, lazy unemployed people." Heck, one crazy on this board was advocating hauling the unemployed away and forcing them to work for free in LABOR CAMPS! Yeah, great idea?!
MontanaMom: Yep, I agree. The cost of living is out of control these days even as real wages haven't increased in a decade, unemployment is around 15 to 20%, and inflation is still running wild (despite the lies of the Fed.) Of course, we're supposed to believe that Americans need to "compete" by being paid peanuts while the executives reap all the profits while dodging taxes, refusing to hire people, and gutting the nation's economy! Certain individuals would even claim they "deserve" their absurd pay because of how "talented" they are and how so few people can run a corporation.
Naturally, this is insane - companies are run just fine in other nations with far less money being poured into the greedy hands of the monsters at the top, and if these clowns are so talented, why have they run our economy into the ground and why do they get millions of dollars for leaving a company even after they ruined it? Nobody gave me a decade's worthy of salary after I was laid off, and I contributed a lot more to the company than the idiot CEO who's currently trashing the place. Geez...
If you work full time for a living you have value as a human being, period. Why do you think the minimum wage was enacted in the first place? To give people the decency of being able to support themselves. The problem with the minimum wage is it hasn't kept place with real inflation.
Should we go back to no labor laws, and allow children to work, as then did in the coal mines early on in the 20th century? How about we let corporation have so much power that they hire mercenaries to kill their employees who are on strike?
When did I say anything about allowing children to work? I asked you if a janitor is worth $20/hr to a company? It is a yes or not question. We aren't talking about intrinsic value as human beings, we are talking about how much a person can add value to the company they CHOSE to work for.
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Originally Posted by montanamom
It's not just the value he adds to the company.
With all due respect, yes it is. That person signed up to work for that company, and that person has to go in every day and prove that he/she is making the company more money than they are paying him. No one is owed anything.
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It's the money he does not have to TAKE from the system in the way of food stamps, heating assistance, etc. in order to survive. It's also that he adds money bacl to the economy because he now has an income that is sufficient enough to possibly purchase the necessities such as a home, a vehicle, medical care, and enough discretionery income left over for other commodities. Maybe he can even save enough to send his kids to college instead of depending on Pell grants, or student loans. Perhaps he brings home enough that his wife can stay home and care for her children and will not need government subsidized child care. Maybe he will feel good enough about the fact that his hard work is affording him a decent life, and so he continues to work hard and eventually move up from that janitorial position, allowing another person who wants to work hard to take his place.
All of those things are great, but it is up to the individual to be able to prove that he is worth that much money. It is not up to a company, or even society as a whole to make sure that person has all of those things. Work to prove you are worth that much.
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I heard an economist say that due to the cost of living in these times, and the increasing cost of medical care, energy and food, the minimum wage should realistically be about $13.00 - $14.00 per hour. The MINIMUM wage.
Can you post sources for those figures? Personally, I have lived in a major city on minimum wage, and lived just fine. The real problem is that many things people call 'necessities' today are really luxuries.
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Regardless of what "job creator" brain washing we've been led to believe, real economic stimulus needs to start at the bottom with an increase in the pay to average working Americans, who are the the majority of citizens.
People balk at $20 an hour, but where's the outrage at the CEO who makes thousands of dollars the hour he does nothing but sits on the pot in his ivory tower office?
You just lost all credibility when you claim that a CEO 'does nothing but sit on the pot in his ivory tower office'. 99% of CEOs have worked 70-80 hour weeks for their entire lives to add value to a company and grow it into what it is today. Just because that 1% that are failures make it on the local news doesn't mean no CEOs add value. The vast majority of CEOs add several times more than their compensation in value to the company.
I know it is attractive to bash executives today (hey, it is easier to do that than to work harder to make yourself more valuable to a company!), but you need to look at the issue from a little less biased point of view.
When did I say anything about allowing children to work? I asked you if a janitor is worth $20/hr to a company? It is a yes or not question. We aren't talking about intrinsic value as human beings, we are talking about how much a person can add value to the company they CHOSE to work for.
With all due respect, yes it is. That person signed up to work for that company, and that person has to go in every day and prove that he/she is making the company more money than they are paying him. No one is owed anything.
I never said you allowed children to work, I was citing an example. You know, instead of seeing the world in black and white? And you asked me nothing, you shining luminary, you fount of wisdom. You asked someone else earlier in the thread, not me. I have not commented on this thread until now.
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All of those things are great, but it is up to the individual to be able to prove that he is worth that much money.
I'm not even going to engage these unsophisticated, child-like arguments. It sickens me what our country has become. People are more ignorant then every, yet they have 'the sum of human knowledge' at their fingertips (the internet).
If you work full time for a living you have value as a human being, period. Why do you think the minimum wage was enacted in the first place? To give people the decency of being able to support themselves. .
No one is debating whether a janitor is worth $7.25.
Except that the vast majority of bonds and equities are owned by public pension funds and 401k holders, not the "rich". I don't remember the statistic but it was something like 75% or 85% of the US market is owned by public funds.
I`m not debating the point of who owns the majority of bonds or equities. But wealthly people invest their money. That`s how they become more wealthy. They risk their capital in bonds and equities. They just don`t put it in a savings account in the local bank or money market fund and let it gain 3%..lol.
And everyone knows that companies use corporate bonds and equities to grow their business. When a business reaches critical mass they can choose to stay small and not go public or look for investors. Others take it to the next level and find investors or go public to grow and expand. That`s how a lot of tech companies have expanded recently. Another poster seemed to think that demand was the way companies grew. Which is true to a certain point for small companies. But he didn`t understand that for small companies to become huge corporations or expand nationally, they need money. So if you work for a huge corporation, you probably wouldn`t be getting a paycheck if it wasn`t for corporate investors. If you work for a mom n pop business, it may be different. But they probably depend on big coporations in some form, such as for parts, machinery, services or other things they may need to help run their business.
But you may be right about the majority of bond and equity ownerships. I don`t know. But if that is true, then companies growing help middle America in the sense that they provide jobs and give return on their 401k investments. A win win. But it seems the CEO`s are finding ways to keep more of the profits for themselves and that is not good for employees. CEO`s are keeping a greater share of the profits than ever before. I`m not sure of the exact figures, but I read somewhere that in the 60`s CEO`s made about 17% more than their employees and now they make 206% more than the average employee.
I find this funny people think were actually going to win this race to the bottom. You can hire a good engineer in India for 15 to 20k a year. That is 8 to 9 bucks an hour no benefits or worker comp. Most white collar jobs can be done in India for 3 to 5 bucks an hour. India uses tons of child labor has for years. No health or safety codes of any kind. IT workers can be hired at 9 to 12k all day long. China a good engineer can be hired at 7 to 10k a year. Once again no benefits of any kind. Health and safety codes you must be joking. You can find a good white collar worker for 300 to 400 a month. The job market is flooded with college grads who can not find work. It has been going on for years in China their has been social unrest. The government got rid of most of the social safety net in the 1990's When you can get engineers for minimum wage no benefits. You are not going to win that race in the end.
I find this funny people think were actually going to win this race to the bottom. You can hire a good engineer in India for 15 to 20k a year. That is 8 to 9 bucks an hour no benefits or worker comp. Most white collar jobs can be done in India for 3 to 5 bucks an hour. India uses tons of child labor has for years. No health or safety codes of any kind. IT workers can be hired at 9 to 12k all day long. China a good engineer can be hired at 7 to 10k a year. Once again no benefits of any kind. Health and safety codes you must be joking. You can find a good white collar worker for 300 to 400 a month. The job market is flooded with college grads who can not find work. It has been going on for years in China their has been social unrest. The government got rid of most of the social safety net in the 1990's When you can get engineers for minimum wage no benefits. You are not going to win that race in the end.
The college grad unemployment rate is about 60% of the overall Us average.
Bob I do think you understand the point I was making. In no way can we compete with third world wages it is that simple. It is called global labor arbitrage. Our wages must fall most likely by half just to compete. We must get rid of benefits as well no health benefits or worker's comp. Our R&D is leaving because it can be done for 25 cents on the dollar in India less in China. High end jobs can be done at a cost of 60% to 75% less overseas. Lower and middle end jobs can be done for pennies on dollar. Benefit costs alone means US workers cost too much even before you add any wage at all. We will not win in this global race to the bottom.
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