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cisco: No, they knew exactly what they were doing, and I fail to see how not municipalizing the streetcar line counts as corruption. The city actively didn't want them there, due to ongoing conflicts between LARY and the city of Los Angeles. Most streetcar companies went out of business or converted to buses on their own--NCL purchased, in all, only about 10% of the nation's streetcar systems. You're deliberately overstating and misrepresenting what really happened--to nobody's benefit.
and you are deliberately understating and misrepresenting what really happened--to nobody's benefit.
During the period from 1936 to 1950, National City Lines and Pacific City Lines—with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Trucks, and the Federal Engineering Corporation—bought over 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities including Baltimore, Newark, Los Angeles, New York City, Oakland and San Diego and converted them into bus operation. In 1946, Edwin J. Quinby, a retired naval lieutenant commander, alerted transportation officials across the country to what he called "a careful, deliberately planned campaign to swindle you out of your most important and valuable public utilities—your Electric Railway System". GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies.
Only a small handful of U.S. cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on streetcar or trams, including Newark, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, and Boston. There is now general agreement that GM and other companies were indeed actively involved in a largely unpublicized program to purchase many streetcar systems and convert them to buses, which they supplied. There is also acknowledgment that the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, urban sprawl, and general enthusiasm for the automobile played a role. One author recently summed the situation up stating "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit. Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction."[n 1]
This talking point gets repeated at nauseum on C-D. Putting aside the many challenges to the factual basis of Snell's claims, how do you think Los Angeles would be different today if the streetcars had never been removed? You say that the dismantling of the streetcar lines gave people "no choice but to buy a car if they wanted to go anywhere," but there were still buses they could have ridden. They did not have to buy a car because there were still viable transit options.
who in their right mind wants to use buses that ran once every 30 minutes to an hour if they even served the area at all? GM's diesel buses belched large clouds of black smoke from their exhaust, they were loud and uncomfortable with a jerky ride due to their transmission. they ran infrequently and often late. you only rode the bus if you were poor and desperate. providing bad service and underfunding is a great way to kill PT and that's exactly what GM and company did.
who in their right mind wants to use buses that ran once every 30 minutes to an hour if they even served the area at all? GM's diesel buses belched large clouds of black smoke from their exhaust, they were loud and uncomfortable with a jerky ride due to their transmission. they ran infrequently and often late. you only rode the bus if you were poor and desperate. providing poor service and underfunding is a great way to kill PT and that's exactly what GM and company did.
How do you know that the headways for buses were any worse than they were for streetcars?
How do you know that the headways for buses were any worse than they were for streetcars?
its obvious when you think about it. in the first half of the last century about 80-90% of the urban population relied on streetcars. the electric streetcar networks in every city was so vast, there were so many trolleys on the streets that you never had to wait more than a few minutes for one to come along. there was relatively little automobile traffic at the time to impede their movement, which also helped.
electric powered vehicles are inherently more reliable (with few moving parts to break down) than combustion engine buses that break down much more. unlike electric streetcars, buses had to be refueled several times a day, you had to change their oil every month, pump up the tires, etc. electric trolleys need a lot less costly and time-consuming maintenance making them more reliable. unlike combustion-powered vehicles, electric vehicles are also inherently quiet and smooth, so people actually enjoyed riding in them. I don't know anyone who likes to take the bus. they only do it if they have to.
in the first half of the last century about 80-90% of the urban population relied on streetcars. the electric streetcar networks in every city was so vast, there were so many trolleys on the streets that you never had to wait more than a few minutes for one to come along. there was relatively little automobile traffic at the time to impede their movement, which also helped.
In Dr. Bottles' book, Los Angeles and the Automobile: The Making of the Modern City, he makes the claim that people were actually dissatisfied with streetcar service and supports this claim with survey data and newspaper articles. He also cites a study that says that 62 percent of Angelenos entering the CBD in the late 1920s did so by automobile. Dr. Martin Wachs also relies on the same findings in his paper. If that was the case, then it appears that streetcar service was not as efficient as you make it out to be.
Quote:
Los Angeles had an unusually high rate of automobile ownership before 1920, but during the 20s its familar pattern of reliance on automobile travel was solidified.
Several years prior to the sale of the LARY, a study found that 62 percent of the people entering Los Angeles' central business district did so by automobile.
electric powered vehicles are inherently more reliable (with few moving parts to break down) than combustion engine buses that break down much more. unlike electric streetcars, buses had to be refueled several times a day, you had to change their oil every month, pump up the tires, etc. electric trolleys need a lot less costly and time-consuming maintenance making them more reliable. unlike combustion-powered vehicles, electric vehicles are also inherently quiet and smooth, so people actually enjoyed riding in them. I don't know anyone who likes to take the bus. they only do it if they have to.
In Dr. Bottles' book, Los Angeles and the Automobile: The Making of the Modern City, he makes the claim that people were actually dissatisfied with streetcar service and supports this claim with survey data and newspaper articles. He also cites a study that says that 62 percent of Angelenos entering the CBD in the late 1920s did so by automobile. Dr. Martin Wachs also relies on the same findings in his paper. If that was the case, then it appears that streetcar service was not as efficient as you make it out to be.
Not according to this poll.
“Despite public opinion polls that showed 88 percent of the public favoring expansion of the rail lines after World War II, NCL systematically closed its streetcars down until, by 1955, only a few remained,” writes author Jim Motavalli in his 2001 book, Forward Drive.
so you think buses are quieter and smoother than electric rail transit?
they pollute less? require less maintenance? is that a joke?
A bus does not have to have an internal combustion engine. They can run off electricity, too, ya know. This is what Jarrett Walker refers to as a "misidentified difference."
And yes, buses have actually been shown to be "greener" than streetcars. Professors at the very conservative University of California at Berkeley said as much in a 2008 study:
Quote:
In 2008, the University of California at Berkeley Center for Future Urban Transit published a study measuring modes of transit according to what we might call a whole-shmear comparison: They looked at the energy and environmental costs that go into manufacturing trains, cars and buses, the costs of producing fuel for them, building roads, rail lines and all other infrastructure.
Quote:
The more stunning result was in the comparison of light rail, which would include most streetcar systems, with buses. Buses came out substantially cleaner than light rail in basic pollution, and they beat the socks off light rail in energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, doing almost twice as well in the UC-Berkely whole-shmear comparison.
and you are deliberately understating and misrepresenting what really happened--to nobody's benefit.
I'm looking at that city's perspective at the time, not what we know now with the benefit of hindsight.
Quote:
During the period from 1936 to 1950, National City Lines and Pacific City Lines—with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Trucks, and the Federal Engineering Corporation—bought over 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities including Baltimore, Newark, Los Angeles, New York City, Oakland and San Diego and converted them into bus operation. In 1946, Edwin J. Quinby, a retired naval lieutenant commander, alerted transportation officials across the country to what he called "a careful, deliberately planned campaign to swindle you out of your most important and valuable public utilities—your Electric Railway System". GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies.
Only a small handful of U.S. cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on streetcar or trams, including Newark, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, and Boston. There is now general agreement that GM and other companies were indeed actively involved in a largely unpublicized program to purchase many streetcar systems and convert them to buses, which they supplied. There is also acknowledgment that the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, urban sprawl, and general enthusiasm for the automobile played a role. One author recently summed the situation up stating "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit. Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction."[n 1]
We know this now...we didn't know it then. I agree it was a bad decision, and that NCL were deliberately out to get rid of electric traction. But it wasn't malice on the city of Los Angeles' part that led to that decision, nor was there anything like a mandate from the public for the city to municipalize LARY.
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